MX3s Can't Drift...Good!

Jacbs2007 · Post by **Jacbs2007** » December 10th, 2006, 7:05 am

I don't even know what to say. I would've benefited more had I sat down and looked at a bottle of water for 25 minuts rather then spend that time reading through these 4 pages.

100lbs=100lbs! I'm a genious!

neutral · Post by **neutral** » December 10th, 2006, 8:57 am

and that is 25 minutes of your life gone that you can never get back.

Nd4SpdSe · Post by **Nd4SpdSe** » December 10th, 2006, 11:49 am

At least it's only 25min you've wasted in this thread

mitmaks · Post by **mitmaks** » December 10th, 2006, 1:04 pm

Red Egg wrote:
mitmaks wrote: what was build on the stang? Do you consider yourself a good driver? what was wrong with the car, maybe you needed to fix it up before actually driving it, you know.
That car is long gone now. It was a late 1970s Ford Mustang 5.0 and looked something like this:

It was actually my Grandfather's and he lent it to me on weekends when I was in high school. It was really fun to drive, but I felt it wasn't as safe as my current MX3 because of the loose handling and braking. I am sure the new Mustangs are a lot better. I thought the tires were too small for such a big V8.

This car had so much power that the front hood would pop up when you "floored it". You could "lay a patch" like nobody's business!

dude seriously, wtf are you talking about comparing 70s stang to mx3, go compare 90's stang to 90's mx3.get a life man

Red Egg · Post by **Red Egg** » December 10th, 2006, 3:08 pm

Nd4SpdSe, the Lamborghini in the video has four wheel drive and a mid-engine; the Porsche 911 has available AWD too. Now, my MX3 GS only has FWD, not AWD like those supercars, so it would not be a fair race. Great German videos though! Makes me look forward to Berlin this Spring.

I would love to race my MX3 against a RWD front-engine supercar on the North-Sweden snow they had in the video and then laugh when he fishtails onto a farmer's field. I would then offer to tow him out of the snowy field with my trusty MX3. I think a RWD RX7 would lose even worse to a MX3 GS on that Swedish snow.

Contrary to what Nd4SpdSe, neutral, & Jacbs2007 say, this thread is not a waste of time. It is an important subject that hasn't been examined enough because of the current "climate of fear" in racing culture. It was an enlightening 25 minutes of discussion that was a break from mundane repair questions and answers. This thread seeks deeper truths and doesn't fear tired conventions and beliefs. Perhaps we need television's "Myth Busters" to investigate the question of FWD vs RWD. If there are any professional engineers or physics teachers on this thread, what do you think about this debate?

Boris · Post by **Boris** » December 10th, 2006, 3:55 pm

mythbusters wouldn't touch this topic because it's so obvious that a rwd performs better on the track than fwd. Even in snow, I mean whether you're racing a fwd or rwd you'll be sideways most of the time on corners, but with rwd you won't be losing speed while sliding sideways, as nd4spd has explained with his definition of drifting and why fwd cars cannot do it. A rwd will allow you to maintain your speed better while going sideways on a turn.

Also, rwd allows you to recover from understeer, and oversteer much more effectively, so when a professional race driver starts to lose control in the snow, it would be easier for him/her to recover without losing too much speed.

Yes it's harder for your average driver to control a rwd in the snow, but that doesn't mean that it is slower. I mean hey, it's harder to control a car with modified race suspension than it is to control a car with stock suspension. That doesn't mean that a car with stock suspension is faster on the track.

Boris · Post by **Boris** » December 10th, 2006, 4:00 pm

Haven't seen this top gear yet, and I can't watch it at this moment because my computer is screwing up but check it out and let me know which vehicle performs the best: http://youtube.com/watch?v=UPdUrWa_F0A

Red Egg · Post by **Red Egg** » December 10th, 2006, 4:24 pm

mitmaks wrote: dude seriously, wtf are you talking about comparing 70s stang to mx3, go compare 90's stang to 90's mx3.get a life man

I've rented many cars on vacation & business, and their is one common thread; the American cars were loose & falling apart, and cars from any other country were better. I especially like the smaller Toyotas, Renaults, and Volvos.

That old Mustang I drove in high school was a death trap. I doubt if Mustang as gotten its act together much since then; "Consumers Report" says the 2007 Mustang has very poor reliability. Big surprise! In 15 years, the 2007 Mustangs will be crushed-metal-cubes at the scrap yard. My 1992 MX3 is still going strong! VW, Mazda, Toyota, or Honda is the way to go. My next car will probably be a front-wheel-drive VW because I don't like the new Mazdas as much.

mythbusters wouldn't touch this topic because it's so obvious that a rwd performs better on the track than fwd.

Boris, it is not obvious if you have equal hp and allow the FWD car to benefit from its lighter weight. This would make a good science fair project.

Great video! But notice they were driving in perfect conditions with cars of different prices and horsepower. The RWD BMW has traction control too.

These tests were designed to showcase the cars' upper limits which is not really applicable to daily driving. I was impressed with the RWD BMW's performance though under these ideal conditions, but I think they "underplayed" the oversteer problem. I'd like to see the "out-takes" when that BMW spins out at that round-about. Let's try it again on gravel or snow!

Boris · Post by **Boris** » December 10th, 2006, 4:31 pm

I finally got the vid to work. I was surprised that rwd was favored even over awd. I doubt they had traction control on for that stunt, too.

These tests were designed to showcase the cars' upper limits which is not really applicable to daily driving

Aren't we debating which car performs better? If we're arguing which is a better daily driver then we shouldn't be discussing which car has better acceleration, or corners better, we should be discussing which has more space for groceries, has the best gas mileage, and the most comfortable back seats for the kiddies. I thought we were discussing which would perform the best on a track (whether the track is wet, or dry)

And btw I'm pretty sure that if the cars were put on gravel or snow, the same outcome would occur... just more exagerated. The BMW would throw it's a-- out a little more, and the FWD would understeer out of control. RWD would still maintain MORE control than the FWD

mr1in6billion · Post by **mr1in6billion** » December 10th, 2006, 5:02 pm

Boris wrote:
These tests were designed to showcase the cars' upper limits which is not really applicable to daily driving
Aren't we debating which car performs better? If we're arguing which is a better daily driver then we shouldn't be discussing which car has better acceleration, or corners better, we should be discussing which has more space for groceries, has the best gas mileage, and the most comfortable back seats for the kiddies. I thought we were discussing which would perform the best on a track (whether the track is wet, or dry)

I don't think he knows what he's arguing.

RedEgg wrote:I think they "underplayed" the oversteer problem.

All rwd cars are going to have a big of oversteer, it's part of how the car is layed out. There is nothing wrong with it. And it's a hell of a lot better than understeering.

RedEgg wrote:That old Mustang I drove in high school was a death trap.

You can't just bring in random specific cars and compare them. My first car was a 92 Civic. It looked fairly good, but it was falling apart at the seams. I once had part of my door fly off while I was cruising down the highway. I blame it on the fwd.

Boris also gets 10 points for the best arguement.

Yes it's harder for your average driver to control a rwd in the snow, but that doesn't mean that it is slower. I mean hey, it's harder to control a car with modified race suspension than it is to control a car with stock suspension. That doesn't mean that a car with stock suspension is faster on the track.

mitmaks · Post by **mitmaks** » December 10th, 2006, 5:29 pm

Red Egg wrote:
mitmaks wrote: dude seriously, wtf are you talking about comparing 70s stang to mx3, go compare 90's stang to 90's mx3.get a life man
I've rented many cars on vacation & business, and their is one common thread; the American cars were loose & falling apart, and cars from any other country were better. I especially like the smaller Toyotas, Renaults, and Volvos.

That old Mustang I drove in high school was a death trap. I doubt if Mustang as gotten its act together much since then; "Consumers Report" says the 2007 Mustang has very poor reliability. Big surprise! In 15 years, the 2007 Mustangs will be crushed-metal-cubes at the scrap yard. My 1992 MX3 is still going strong! VW, Mazda, Toyota, or Honda is the way to go. My next car will probably be a front-wheel-drive VW because I don't like the new Mazdas as much.

mythbusters wouldn't touch this topic because it's so obvious that a rwd performs better on the track than fwd.
Boris, it is not obvious if you have equal hp and allow the FWD car to benefit from its lighter weight. This would make a good science fair project.

Great video! But notice they were driving in perfect conditions with cars of different prices and horsepower. The RWD BMW has traction control too.

These tests were designed to showcase the cars' upper limits which is not really applicable to daily driving. I was impressed with the RWD BMW's performance though under these ideal conditions, but I think they "underplayed" the oversteer problem. I'd like to see the "out-takes" when that BMW spins out at that round-about. Let's try it again on gravel or snow!

well, this stupid argument is easily solvable. My stang vs mx3, we'll see who wins and then we'll go on from there, how about that?

mitmaks · Post by **mitmaks** » December 10th, 2006, 5:38 pm

Red Egg wrote:
mitmaks wrote: dude seriously, wtf are you talking about comparing 70s stang to mx3, go compare 90's stang to 90's mx3.get a life man
I've rented many cars on vacation & business, and their is one common thread; the American cars were loose & falling apart, and cars from any other country were better. I especially like the smaller Toyotas, Renaults, and Volvos.

That old Mustang I drove in high school was a death trap. I doubt if Mustang as gotten its act together much since then; "Consumers Report" says the 2007 Mustang has very poor reliability. Big surprise! In 15 years, the 2007 Mustangs will be crushed-metal-cubes at the scrap yard. My 1992 MX3 is still going strong! VW, Mazda, Toyota, or Honda is the way to go. My next car will probably be a front-wheel-drive VW because I don't like the new Mazdas as much.

mythbusters wouldn't touch this topic because it's so obvious that a rwd performs better on the track than fwd.
Boris, it is not obvious if you have equal hp and allow the FWD car to benefit from its lighter weight. This would make a good science fair project.

Great video! But notice they were driving in perfect conditions with cars of different prices and horsepower. The RWD BMW has traction control too.

These tests were designed to showcase the cars' upper limits which is not really applicable to daily driving. I was impressed with the RWD BMW's performance though under these ideal conditions, but I think they "underplayed" the oversteer problem. I'd like to see the "out-takes" when that BMW spins out at that round-about. Let's try it again on gravel or snow!

My FWD civic DX had more rust than my 68 Charger does. Civic will be (if not already) in junk yard and gonna be recycled while Charger appreciates in value and is restorable. Oh ya it would outperform that civic any day too. So am I saying that all FWD cars suck or what? No, every car has its purpose. Civic is to get to and back from work and eventually go to junk yard. RWD Charger to be enjoyed and be part of American Car history.

Red Egg · Post by **Red Egg** » December 10th, 2006, 7:19 pm

mitmaks wrote: well, this stupid argument is easily solvable. My stang vs mx3, we'll see who wins and then we'll go on from there, how about that?

The Mustang's superior HP would make it an unfair race on the track. If you could find a 130 hp RWD Mustang, do you think it would beat the MX3 GS on the track or in rally? No way, Jose! Anyway, I'm not into that type of racing. Too bad we couldn't have a computer simulation or something.

Hey, I know there are some excellent American-made cars. I just had a few bad experiences that tainted my opinion of them. There will always be a market for Mustang, Camaro, and Firebird muscle cars.

mitmaks · Post by **mitmaks** » December 10th, 2006, 7:30 pm

there you go, you've answered your own question. You personally had bad experience with some US made cars, does that make them all bad? No. And yes RWD car of same age as mx3 will usually handle better than mx3.

Red Egg · Post by **Red Egg** » December 10th, 2006, 7:33 pm

Jacbs2007 wrote: 100lbs=100lbs! I'm a genious!

Urban Dictionary definition of "Genious"
It is often the case that [people] describe themselves as 'genious' but are ironically ignorant to the fact that the word is spelt 'genius' - much to the amusement of intelligent people.
"Like, woah, yeah man, I'm like, such a genious, dude!"
http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=genious

Mitmaks, you are right; it is unfair to judge all American-made cars based on limited experience. Sorry.