MX3s Can't Drift...Good!

General Mazda MX-3 Discussions
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Nd4SpdSe
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Post by Nd4SpdSe »

Gottagofaster wrote:umm, first off the only reason we have front wheel drive cars is because they are more efficient........not because they are fast or handle well lol
Of course, but their are benefits to the simpler design of FWD.
Tunes67 wrote: You dont watch much in the way of racing do you? RWD cars have owned the race world forever and continue to do so. The ONLY racing venue where AWD cars are even used are rally races. NASCAR, INDY, DRAG.. all are owned by RWD cars. Yes there are FWD drag cars.. but even the fastest is still behind the RWD cars.

FWD cars are fun and cheap. But if racing is what you want.. stop dinking with FWD.. go AWD or RWD.. they rule the race tracks and FWD costs too much money to make consistently reliable to compete against either.
Part of that reason is power as well, and power delivery. One of the problems with FWD is it's understeer characteristic, and the more power you add, the more is shows it's ugly face. As well, having the front wheels being driven, it makes putting that power to the ground harder on acceleration, never mind accelerating AND turning. Another downfall is the weight distrubution. What you see as a benefit in winter driving to have the motor over the wheels, is also a downfall in performance aspects. The car's weight will always be biased forward, so to make a FWD balanced is almost impossible without to start to add weight in the rear. While most RWD cars are still weight biased towards the front of the car, balancing it out or putting more weight towards the rear isn't a bad thing since it'll add weight (and traction) to the rear wheels, on a FWD car, that could cause more understeer. on AWD/RWD cars, it's possible to balance the car between understeer and oversteer to improve handling, and according tot he drivers preference, on FWD, you can't really get oversteer, so to try to balance the car doesn't have nearly the benefit.
Red Egg wrote:All those "performance" RWD cars that you mention cost a fortune and wouldn't necessarily beat a Mazda MX3 in a rally race. Ferrari and Maserati would eventually end up in the ditch as soon as they hit some dirt or gravel.
That's not fair to compare. Rally cars are purpuse built rally cars, while those performance cars are built to perform extremely well on pavement, while being street legal as well. Once a car is purpose built (and especially no longer street legal) of course it will gain an advantage compared to others that are not in that class.
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Post by hgallegos915 »

Oh yeah.. and tokyop drift is a movie meant to make revenue for them... most of those stunts are cpu generated lol Just like ff1 and ff2..
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Post by mr1in6billion »

Red Egg wrote:The 2006 RWD Miata (MX5) has a 2.0 L 170 hp engine vs 130 hp in the 1.8 L MX3 V6. A stock FWD MX3 with 170 hp would be my choice between the two cars.
Apples and Oranges. You can't compare 2 cars 15 years apart. I've compared my 95MX3 to my buddies 94MX5. Same engine (sort of) and he blows me out of the water. Mostly because of the small tires for better gearing, better tuning and its lighter.
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Post by Red Egg »

That's not fair to compare. Rally cars are purpose built rally cars, while those performance cars are built to perform extremely well on pavement, while being street legal as well.
I agree that it is not fair to compare RWD to FWD for rally sport, but that's the point. The MX3 is not a purpose-built rally car but would perform well in a variety of conditions. In a rally race on dirt & gravel (with cliff-side hairpin turns) between the following stock-factory-built cars, who would win?
  • * 2007 Ford Shelby Cobra GT500, RWD, 6-speed manual, 5.4L supercharged V8, 450+ hp & torque, 255/45/19 tires, driven by champion derek ringer.
    * 1992 MX3 GS, Red Egg Edition, FWD, 5-speed manual, 1.8L V6, 130 hp & 115 torque, 205/55/15 tires, driven by colin mcrae.

The Ford would have to start in 3rd gear as not to spin out. :) I wonder if the Shelby Cobra owner would be willing to race for pink slips? :wink:

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Post by Nd4SpdSe »

Your analogy does not imply that the superiority if because of the Mx-3 itself, your just taking examples in which the choosen car would have an disadvantage. If you want to properly compare, compare 2 cars, one in which is FWD, the other RWD, but both are of similar weight and power outputs.

A similar comparison would be an 94+ Mx-3 RS w/105hp to a 91-93 Miata w/116hp, Or a Mx-3 GS w/130hp vs a 94 Miata w/128hp, or the 96 w/133hp, however, even with that comparison, the Miata was a basic sports car with amazing stock handling, while the Mx-3 is more of an economy hatch.

In know in case that more power in low traction conditions if not beneficial. The perfect example would my Mx-3, original K8 to my ZE. I can tell you from personal experience that having more power actualyl handicapped the car in the snow, snow driving would be similar to dirt to a certain extent in the way the cars would be driven. I am an avid e-brake snow-drifter, and the more torque from the 2.5L caused my front tires to loose traction much easier (and i had snow tires on in both instances), creating alot more understeer, and the drive wheels would do very little to pull the car out of a slide cause they would do more spinning. I could be driving at 30-40kmh and punch in in 4th gear and the tires would spin. Your argument's examples are not handicapped by the RWD drivetrain layout, but by the power output of the vehicle. A RWD vehicle doesn't have the problem of understeer, but oversteer, which would be beneficial to rotate the car around a corner. Again, this could be problamatic if the car has soo much power, but while a high-power RWD would want to oversteer and spin out, a high-power FWD would want to understeer and veer off the track.
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Post by mitmaks »

Tropical Emerald 1993 wrote:Most cars are FWD I guess because of handling and stability. I have no idea why RWD are built (except for drifting or prestige).
RWD cars handle better (excluding snow) than FWD
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Post by Red Egg »

If you want to properly compare, compare 2 cars, one in which is FWD, the other RWD, but both are of similar weight and power outputs.
I see what you are saying here. OK, if we had two identical MX3s with the same engines and specs except for the fact that one is FWD and the other is RDW, what would be the result? I say that the FWD would be lighter and therefore would be faster. It would also have the handling advantages of a lighter, FWD car; good for both rally & track.
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Re: MX3s Can't Drift...Good!

Post by illapino »

Red Egg wrote:Since drift cars are usually sporty rear-wheel-drive cars, it is assumed that the front-wheel drive MX3 cannot drift like the Honda S2000, Miata, or RX7. This actually proves the advantage of front-wheel drive and its superior control. Films like "The Fast and the Furious, Toronto Drift" fail to show the benefits of front-wheel drive. Drifting is simply driving fast around corners without the complete control of a front-wheel drive. Driving on ice or snow provides the same effect; making snow donuts in a parking lot. The superior front-wheel drive control is one more advantage of the MX3. 8)
i see no qualification to refer to drifting in the regard u speak of. the point of drifting is basically the looks: the cars swerving around like a yakuza!!!! so what if the mx3 is FWD and has the 'advantage' of not being 'driftable' ... i see that as a con: it can't do something so simple !!! wouldn't u want to get crazy in ur mx3 and peel around corners? by the looks of that style of driving, i see alot of control involved actually when 'pros' do it: the way the rear tires swerve around in a perfect 'pivot' while the front wheels stay stubbornly straight dead on destination. "if u ain't outta control u ain't in control". its actually a paradox ... by the way, the movie was called tokyo drift, not toronto drift ...

and yes, i did laugh when Sean Boswell failed to meet his curfew one night and had a gun pointed at him by Flatface, so his dad saved him from Flatface with his own gun, then confronted his son ready to deport him, but then Sean said he had to do this, then the dad looked at the ground and said, "at least ur not making the same mistakes i did", so Sean Boswell runs off after Flatface who had a gun pointed at him
:shock:
WTF !! ? !! ?
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Nd4SpdSe
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Post by Nd4SpdSe »

Red Egg wrote:I see what you are saying here. OK, if we had two identical MX3s with the same engines and specs except for the fact that one is FWD and the other is RWD, what would be the result? I say that the FWD would be lighter and therefore would be faster. It would also have the handling advantages of a lighter, FWD car; good for both rally & track.
Being lighter doesn't necessarilly mean that the car will automatically have better handling and will be faster. In accelerating, the car's weight get's transfered towards the rear, on the RWD car, it will improve traction, on FWD, you will loose traction, traction is kinda essential. This would definitely be a problem in low traction scenerios and fast acceleration. Sure, you have the benefit of having the motor over the wheels to help give you traction, but this is pretty much only beneficial tho regular drivers where acceleration isn't full throttle. The weight-over-the-wheels benefit is only when the car is at a standstill for initial traction, but that's short lived, as the RWD should accelerate faster once it started to accelerate. You can argue on RWD if you try to accelerate too hard, the rear will want to kick out, while on FWD, you can just mash the gas and it will pull the car forward regardless, but that is something that only novices apply, professionals should be able to accelerate properly given any drivetrain layout.

As for rally and cornering. Your looking at the benefit of the pulling effect of FWD as opposed to how it's executed. You forget that FWD's downfall is understeer. If you want to enduce oversteer for going a round a corner, you either hit the brakes or use the ebrake. In either case, they slow down the car. On RWD, they naturally want to oversteer, so all they need to go is actually give it more power, so as opposed to slowing down with FWD, RWD's can actually retain their speed or accelerate at that same point. If there's a given corner where you need to slow down, you could use those techniques to rotate the car around the corner and pull you out, probably giving a the FWD a much higher entrance speed.

Even worse is on pavement, trying to get the rear loose will seriously slow you down. On pavement, FWD will suffer from understeer, especially on hard cornering or where the corner tightens. One of the main downfalls is that on FWD is that the front tires have to not only pull the car forward, but also turn it, so in essence, to the tires have to device the work load amonst those tasks, so if your turning, you're sacrificing traction for acceleration, or moretypically, if your accerating, you have less grip for turning (understeer). FWD are suppose to be better for tight turns like chicanes because of it's layout, you just turn the wheels and the car follows, but on RWD, the car need to basically straighten out to prepare for the next corner. FWD is suppose to be better for braking for what I remember that I read at one point, but from what I see and have experienced, it hasn't. The same principle applies as turn accelerating. Your braking, you can easilly overload the max traction of the tires, leaving nothing to grip for turning, again, more understeer.

FWD is more forgiving for the novice driver, however RWD is typically superior in all cases. However, there is a saying; Front Wheel Drive: Easiest To Learn, Hardest To Master. There are techniques and ways to drive for compensating some of the FWD's disadvantages,
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2004 Mazda RX-8 GT - Renesis Wankel : LS3 Coils, BHR Mid-Pipe + Falken RT-615K 245/40r18
2011 Mazda Mazda2 GS - 1.5L Manual : Yozora Edition (1 of 500)
2003 Nissan Xterra SE - 4x4 Supercharged : 2" Body Lift, 4" Suspension Lift & 33" MTR Kevlar
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Post by Boris »

I agree with everything said about rwd's... they're way better for performance reasons, and more fun than fwd. BUT fwd's can be good track cars too (or at least touge I guess) http://youtube.com/watch?v=x0u4zNetRNE& ... ed&search=

This video should also be posted in red eggs thread about how shatty hondas are lol
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Post by Red Egg »

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia:

Advantages of front wheel drive

* Interior space: Since the powertrain is a single unit contained in the engine compartment of the vehicle, there is no need to devote interior space for a driveshaft tunnel or rear differential, increasing the volume available for passengers and cargo.
* Cost: Fewer components overall
* Weight: Fewer components mean lower weight
* Improved fuel efficiency due to less weight
* Improved drivetrain efficiency: the direct connection between engine and transaxle reduce the mass and mechanical inertia of the drivetrain compared to a rear-wheel drive vehicle with a similar engine and transmission, allowing greater fuel economy.
* Assembly efficiency: the powertrain can be often be assembled and installed as a unit, which allows more efficient production.
* Slippery-surface traction: placing the mass of the drivetrain over the driven wheels improves stand-still traction on wet, snowy, or icy surfaces, although heavy cargo can be beneficial for traction on rear-wheel drive pickup trucks.
* Predictable handling characteristics: front-wheel drive cars, with a front weight bias, tend to understeer at the limit, which is commonly believed to be easier for average drivers to correct than terminal oversteer, and less prone to result in fishtailing or a spin.
* Better crosswind stability.
* Tactile feedback via the steering wheel informing driver if a wheel is slipping.
* Front wheel drive allows the use of left-foot braking as a driving technique. However this mostly applies to rally cars.
* While driving on snow or ice, the skilled driver can control the movement of the car even while skidding by steering, throttling and pulling the hand brake (given that the hand brake operates the rear wheels as in most cases, with early SAAB:s being a exception). It takes practice to master but it vastly increases safety while driving in cold environments, given that the driver understands the risks involved in intentional skidding.
* Front wheel drive wears down the front tires first so you don't have to switch tires to get the best tires in the rear.

Disadvantages of front wheel drive

* The center of gravity of the vehicle is typically farther forward than a comparable rear-wheel drive layout. In front wheel drive cars, the front axle typically supports around 2/3rd of the weight of the car (quite far off the "ideal" 50/50 weight distribution). This is a contributing factor in the tendency of front wheel drive cars to understeer.
* Torque steer can be a problem on front wheel drive cars with higher torque engines ( > 210 N·m ) and transverse layout. This is the name given to the tendency for some front wheel drive cars to pull to the left or right under hard acceleration. It is a result of the offset between the point about which the wheel steers (which falls at a point which is aligned with the points at which the wheel is connected to the steering mechanisms) and the centroid of its contact patch. The tractive force acts through the centroid of the contact patch, and the offset of the steering point means that a turning moment about the axis of steering is generated. In an ideal situation, the left and right wheels would generate equal and opposite moments, cancelling each other out, however in reality this is less likely to happen. Torque steer is often incorrectly attributed to differing rates of twist along the lengths of unequal front drive shafts. However, Center-point steering geometry can be incorporated in the design to avoid torque steer. This is how the powerful Citroën SM front-wheel drive car avoided the problem.
* Lack of weight shifting will limit the acceleration of a front wheel drive vehicle. In a vehicle the weight shifts back during acceleration giving more traction to the rear wheels. This is the main reason why nearly all racing cars are rear wheel drive. However, since front wheel cars have the weight of the engine over the driving wheels the problem only applies in extreme conditions.
* In some towing situations front wheel drive cars can be at a traction disadvantage since there will be less weight on the driving wheels. Because of this, the weight that the vehicle is rated to safely tow is likely to be less than that of a rear wheel drive or four wheel drive vehicle of the same size and power.
* Due to geometry and packaging constraints, the CV joints (constant-velocity joints) attached to the wheel hub have a tendency to wear out much earlier than the universal joints typically used in their rear wheel drive counterparts. The significantly shorter drive axles on a front wheel drive car causes the joint to flex through a much wider degree of motion, compounded by additional stress and angles of steering, while the CV joints of a rear wheel drive car regularly see angles and wear of less than half that of front wheel drive vehicles.
* The driveshafts may limit the amount by which the front wheels can turn, thus it may increase the turning circle of a front wheel drive car compared to a rear wheel drive one with the same wheelbase.
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Tropical Emerald 1993
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Post by Tropical Emerald 1993 »

The original post wasn't who is faster but who has more control so it doesn't lead to this:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q6YURNSxxPM
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Post by Boris »

I wasn't saying that they're faster, or more controllable. I was just saying that FWD's can be very fast, and aren't always daily drivers. Not really trying to argue a point, just thought you guys would like to see a cool vid of a really fast fwd civic
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Post by Nd4SpdSe »

Red Egg wrote:
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia:

Advantages of front wheel drive
Disadvantages of front wheel drive
That just lists the advantages and disadvantage of the FWD layout, not necessarilly in race scenarios. If FWD was such a huge advantegous platform, most race cars would be using it, how ironic that it's the other way around
Boris wrote:I wasn't saying that they're faster, or more controllable. I was just saying that FWD's can be very fast, and aren't always daily drivers.
Absolutely and I complete agree. One of the reasons why I'm sticking with FWD right now. Most people are to down right dismis FWD as a racing platform, but it can be just as competitive if done right, and in lower-power classes (<300hp). They have their pros and cons like anything else, but to argue it as being the ultimate platform is just ignorant to the facts, in the end, it all comes down to drivers perference and skill.
1992 Mazda Mx-3 GSR - 2.5L KLZE : Award Winning Show Car & Race Car ['02-'09] (Retired)
2004 Mazda RX-8 GT - Renesis Wankel : LS3 Coils, BHR Mid-Pipe + Falken RT-615K 245/40r18
2011 Mazda Mazda2 GS - 1.5L Manual : Yozora Edition (1 of 500)
2003 Nissan Xterra SE - 4x4 Supercharged : 2" Body Lift, 4" Suspension Lift & 33" MTR Kevlar
2001 Nissan Frontier SE - The Frontrailer : Expedition/Off-Road Trailer Project
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Post by Red Egg »

The definitive source for automotive information, "Canadian Driver", provides these advantages of front-wheel drive over rear-end wheel drive:
"Reduced cost: that is often the reason manufacturers design and build the way they do. FWD systems are cheaper to manufacture and install than RWD systems. There is no driveshaft or rear axle housing to build.

Reduced weight is another advantage. Lowering a vehicle's weight improves acceleration, braking, and fuel economy. Traction is improved by having the weight of the engine and transaxle over the drive wheels. This is a big advantage on slippery roads.

A big advantage of FWD is interior space. No large bumps in the floorpan are required to accommodate mechanical parts. Look at current Honda Civics, and you will find great rear seat room in a small vehicle because of a flat floor pan. With no rear differential, trunk space can also be increased." This article was written by "master automotive mechanic" Jim Kerr for Canadian Driver.


Improved acceleration and braking in FWD cars!! What more do you need?! 8)
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