All motor KLZE

bugz · Post by **bugz** » September 18th, 2002, 11:26 pm

i was thinking of the 180cfm @ 8k rpms its not much but itll help .. its off ebay an its a quik hp gain for cheap i wanting to put a button under my pedal for turn on .. think itll work for redusing air restricion an help wlittle with the 2.5.. or maybe the 3.0 not sure on that one yet

Hy300 · Post by **Hy300** » September 18th, 2002, 11:50 pm

Lets make this simple, Don't buy the electric supercharger! You may have worked on V8's but you know very little about this engine. We're all telling you not to buy that little thing because it is simply crap. I'm learning about the K series too, but from what I've read and heard from some reputable people, the K8 is nearly all block with small pistons and tiny displacement. You can increase the bore and stroke substantially at least to the point of the KL engines (still the same block just bored and stroked larger), you can ever go beyond that but not by much. After that, yeah, supercharge that beast, its been done before by plenty of people <A HREF="http://www.mazdamaniac.com/." TARGET=_blank>http://www.mazdamaniac.com/.</A> I suggest you sit back and keep a heads up on the message board, I check in several times daily to learn all I can and post my little commentaries.

Evil G · Post by **Evil G** » September 19th, 2002, 12:03 am

Pelado... and what type of power do you think an alternator produces.... could be AC maybe???? hmmmm

pelado · Post by **pelado** » September 19th, 2002, 12:31 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Evil G: Pelado... and what type of power do you think an alternator produces.... could be AC maybe???? hmmmm<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>So, do you think we have AC power available somewhere in our cars do you?

voltaire · Post by **voltaire** » September 19th, 2002, 3:59 am

Yeah EvilG, it's DC

Psyrg · Post by **Psyrg** » September 19th, 2002, 6:03 am

Paledo...I am perfectly aware that induction motors are AC. I spent a year studying them in an electrical machines paper I took at the University of Canterbury (NZ). And yes a car does have a DC supply, but a <A HREF="http://www.pdl.co.nz/electronics_new/default.htm" TARGET=_blank>three phase motor controller</A> is quite good at making the three phase AC to power the motor. If your really keen you can use one synchronous induction motor to generate the three phase to power another induction motor.Oh, and for the torque required to spin a supercharger, you could get away with an induction motor weighing ony a kilogram or two.Interestingly, alternators produce alternating current - hence the name. Dynamos create DC. The AC is rectified to DC and regulated to remove the AC ripple before it is injected into your cars electrical system.I suppose confusion may arise as often the diode ring is inside the altenator, and so it seems as if it produces DC.[ September 19, 2002: Message edited by: Psyrg ]

pelado · Post by **pelado** » September 19th, 2002, 8:52 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Psyrg: Paledo...I am perfectly aware that induction motors are AC. I spent a year studying them in an electrical machines paper I took at the University of Canterbury (NZ). And yes a car does have a DC supply, but a <A HREF="http://www.pdl.co.nz/electronics_new/default.htm" TARGET=_blank>three phase motor controller</A> is quite good at making the three phase AC to power the motor. If your really keen you can use one synchronous induction motor to generate the three phase to power another induction motor.Oh, and for the torque required to spin a supercharger, you could get away with an induction motor weighing ony a kilogram or two.Interestingly, alternators produce alternating current - hence the name. Dynamos create DC. The AC is rectified to DC and regulated to remove the AC ripple before it is injected into your cars electrical system.I suppose confusion may arise as often the diode ring is inside the altenator, and so it seems as if it produces DC.[ September 19, 2002: Message edited by: Psyrg ]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>You told me absolutely nothing that was new to me. You made just such an astoundingly stupid statement I thought you were a know nothing. But oh me, you're an electrical engineer! I'm impressed now! Your tone reeks of the pompousness assumed by the newly graduated, is this true? Are you a new graduate or was that an experienced engineer that made such a laughable proposal?Instead of just throwing idiotic statements out there, why don't you sit down and calculate how big the motor needs to be, how big the alternator needs to be, how much wiring does it take, and how much of a parasitic loss this contraption will be to the engine. Then tell me why it's superior to a turbocharger....and tell me why the race teams of the world didn't see this solution a long, long time ago?!?!?

voltaire · Post by **voltaire** » September 19th, 2002, 9:02 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Psyrg: I suppose confusion may arise as often the diode ring is inside the altenator, and so it seems as if it produces DC.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>It wouldn't "seem" to produce DC it *would* produce DC.

David Coleman · Post by **David Coleman** » September 19th, 2002, 9:37 pm

Does this business about AC vs DC matter?Nope.Electric superchargers are inferior to the current turbocharger and even belt driven supercharger systems that are out on the market. But, that too is entirely irrelevant, because this post was about NA KLZE's.At 84.5mm x 74.2mm, it is a very short stroke motor. With a 138.35mm rod c/c length, that makes for a 1.86:1 rod ratio. That is very high for a street driven production motor. This high rod ratio would lend itself to being a very high revving motor, but the KL is not in stock form. Why? Well the mild cam specs in stock form do not help. The intake valves are 32mm each, so that is not the issue, they just don't stay open enough. A) Normally Aspirated:As previously stated, the first hurdle to jump when tuning a normally aspirated KL is the cams. The KLZE cams offer more duration, but are still OEM cams, and therefore mild. <A HREF="http://www.interpreptuning.com/" TARGET=_blank>Interprep</A> has done some R&D with KL cam designs through their Motorola Cup MX-6 experience in the late 90's. Alistair Oag is the man you want to talk to there. Colt Cams have also made regrinds. I have not heard any real results with these cams. They are located in Canada.Another limitation is the stock airflow meter. Known as the VAF, it meters air by measuring the resistance across a potentiometer attached to a big cone in the intake path. This is quite restrictive, which is likely one of the reasons why most OEM's now use MAF sensors that restrict much less while also measuring mass instead of volume. <A HREF="http://home.golden.net/%7Etrinity/" TARGET=_blank>Mike P</A> and <A HREF="http://www.brownsword.ca/Probe.html" TARGET=_blank>Andrew Brownsword</A> have both successfully ditched the stock VAF for a high flowing MAF in KLDE cars. Another option to get rid of the VAF is to go to a MAP sensor with a speed density EFI system. Simple Digitial Systems, aka <A HREF="http://sdsefi.com/" TARGET=_blank>SDS</A>, produce a low budget no frills stand alone EFI system which uses a MAP sensor. I have seen good results from this system in Jay B's 428whp 2.0L FE3 Turbo MX-6. It is incredibly simple to tune.The only person I know of and have good information on that has experience with NA KL tuning is Steve "Tekguy". His KLDE rolled 176whp when he had it, and has since rolled 196whp in a new car with some new tweaks. Before he switched to an Acura RSX, I got his image archive, available [url=http://plaza.ufl.edu/mugen23/images/KL/tekguy/here.[/url] <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>A post I made on a Honda forum with some smart engine builders, asking some questions: FWIW, Mazda K series V6's have a 1.86:1 rod ratio in 2.5L form, 2.02:1 in 2.0L and 1.8L form: they're setup to rev. HLA's prevent crazy ramp angles, but I'm working on a solution for that. Back on topic:

So I'll end up picking some up to put on my Jspec 2.5L whenever I get the afore mentioned cam/lifter issues resolved. So we're seeing they've got lots of quench area, very narrow valve angle, good spark plug placement [flat topped pistons in KLZE 10:1 motor, slight dish on KLDE 9.2:1 motor]. Now my injector slots are alot larger, much like the "huge GSR" ones you show above.

Any other thought in regards to head issues at higher rpms? [/i]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Tuan's reply: anything that prevents reversion as the intake valve starts to open is a good thing. So those steeper valve angles may appear to hinder flow and increase area but the philosophy of increasing low valve lift flow around TDC has gone out of fashion. some people believe that the cross sectional area around the exhaust valve seat should be left as is. The area of porting should be further downstream closer to the port exit/exhaust manifold. This allows a venturi effect and the flow to exceed mach 1 (going beyond sonic). In Honda heads at least the roof underhangs from casting flaws are left as is and not touched by the grinder for this reason. What happens in Mazda heads? I'm not certain.You have to be careful about looking at the Mazda Millenia. It is a miller cycle engine not an Otto cycle engine and Miller cycles like having an extra long intake opening duration... reversion city in an Otto cycle.Yes, ensuring the bore of the cylinder and head bowl line up and optimising quench area ensures some degree of "mechanical octane boost". Ensuring you have swirl filling or reverse tumble filling to achieve a stratified charge rather than straight tumble filling also reduces the detonation risk. I'm not a big fan of deshrouding the head bowl to achieve a lower CR. This merely increases the chamber volume and changes the surface area to volume relationship. Detonation resistant lean burn depends on compact chamber volumes, stratified charge on cylinder filling to control the rate of burn and comleteness of burn, and optimal quench area to control the rate of burn by affecting cylinder temperatures.Cooling the head is a nice touch. Lightening the valvetrain further will help. Nitride coating will help. Heat resistant coating the head bowl is another way to control cylinder temperatures and detonation.Nice first post.....<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>[ September 20, 2002: Message edited by: David Coleman ]

David Coleman · Post by **David Coleman** » September 19th, 2002, 9:39 pm

Some good NA FAQ's that I posted in the FAQ forum are also available on my site, under FAQ: <A HREF="http://plaza.ufl.edu/mugen23" TARGET=_blank>http://plaza.ufl.edu/mugen23</A>

Evil G · Post by **Evil G** » September 19th, 2002, 9:47 pm

Pelado, I don't think anyone was ever arguing as to whether an electrical supercharger was better than a mechanical supercharger or a turbo. What was merely said was that is was possible.Yes... there is AC available in the engine bay. Flaming only halts the flow of useful information. If you want to learn nothing, turn off you computer.[ September 19, 2002: Message edited by: David Coleman ]

pelado · Post by **pelado** » September 20th, 2002, 9:33 am

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by Evil G: Pelado, I don't think anyone was ever arguing as to whether an electrical supercharger was better than a mechanical supercharger or a turbo. What was merely said was that is was possible.Yes... there is AC available in the engine bay.Flaming only halts the flow of useful information. If you want to learn nothing, turn off you computer.[ September 19, 2002: Message edited by: David Coleman ]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Flaming also halts the flow of useless information which is what psyrg was passing off. Without thinking he suggested an AC motor. Assuming AC could be wired to one, the result would be a motor supplied with such a wide range of frequency (whenever rpm changed) that the motor life would be short indeed, not to mention the life of the alternator. AC is not "available" in the engine bay since the alternator diodes are contained within the alternator housing, only DC is available outside of the alternator housing.David, nice post.[ September 20, 2002: Message edited by: pelado ]

Sonicxtacy02 · Post by **Sonicxtacy02** » September 20th, 2002, 10:02 am

damn i wish i knew what all that meant

David Coleman · Post by **David Coleman** » September 20th, 2002, 2:51 pm

KL rod ratio: 1.86:1 B16 rod ratio: 1.74:1 B18C rod ratio: 1.5xThe higher the rod ratio, the better the block will take high engine speeds, due to low piston acceleration towards and away from the relative extrema of piston's movement [TDC & BDC]. So, 12000RPM is not out of the question. The IMSA KLxx motors got 480bhp normally aspirated out of 2.5L, which points to upwards of 12000RPM for sure. Serious headwork is required for this, as would be a serious induction setup [individual throttle bodies, etc] and custom extractors. 250whp should be attainable on the street, with cams and compression and mild headwork [and the accompanying bolt ons], with good tuning.

Psyrg · Post by **Psyrg** » September 21st, 2002, 11:22 am

Heh, a real battle of the titans. I agree with David Coleman, this isnt a thread on electrical superchargers. If you'd like to continue this discussion, we should make a new thread. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>You told me absolutely nothing that was new to me.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> No offence intended, but if that were true you'd know it was possible. Did you click on a single link I provided?You should note however, I never said it was a superior system, just a possible system. Nothing compares to a belt driven compressor.

On the note of AC and DC power, unless you have a huge capacitor on your altenator output, you'll notice a fair amount of AC ripple on the DC. If you have a multimeter you can test this quite quickly.Cheers Psyrg

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