Won't start

[caper587]

Hi all! I have a '93 GS, stock K8. Has been running good but two weeks ago it quit running. I needed to plow the yard so started the car, it fired rite up and was running fine, moved it to the back of the yard and shut it off. Plowed, went to move the car back and it won't start. Not a kick. Pump is running, took the return line off at the regulator and there is a good flow. I don't have a pressure gauge so not sure of the pressure. I can hear the injectors clicking and the plugs are wet after cranking the engine over a bit. Not a fuel prob.
Compression varies from 155 to 185, abit of a spread but still above the service limit. If I ground a plug there is fire, not really blue but a fairly large spark. It will jump a spark if you hold the plug within maybe 5mm? If I take the plug out it won't jump a spark from the wire to the head. I thought about the timing belt. It was replaced about 60,000 kms. ago. How many teeth would it have to jump before it won't even kick or sputter? Belt is intact and turning.
I don't want to tear everything apart to find that the belt and timing are fine.
I don't understand electronics very well but tested the coil in the dist. and secondary windings were about 13.5 but I couldn't get hardly any reading off the primary winding no matter what setting I had the multi-meter on. Is this possibile? Can the secondary be good if the primary is bad?
I tried advancing and retarding the dist., thinking that if the timing had jumped alittle that at least it would cough or backfire or something! I can't find any vacum leaks. Are there any sensors that would keep it from starting? Is it possible that I have spark but it's breaking down under compression? Do you guys think this is a timing or a dist. issue? Am I missing something?
Sorry for the long rant but this is driving me nuts!
Oh, There were three codes, 23(OS), 16(EGR) those two have been on for awhile, and 05(knock sensor) this one is newer. None of these would keep it from starting?

[Ryan]

Your car sounds like it should start.

If it sparks, the timing belt is intact, and the disty is very likely O.K.

To quickly check the mechanical ignition timing, you still have to remove the tbelt covers, unless you have access to a timing light, then its just cake.

I'm not sure what to look into, it looks like you have all your bases covered.

Resorting to "guess and check" diagnostics, I'd suggest trying a different distributor.

[caper587]

Althought it's expensive at about $400, I almost wish it is the disty since it's easy to replace. No one around here has a spare to try with. If it had jumped it's timing, how many teeth would it take before it wouldn't even make an attempt at going? I mean there's not a cough, a kick, a backfire, just nothing!
Batts. fully charged, eng. spins over fast. I've searched timing belt probs. on here and read were some people have had them jump 2-3 on the crank and 4-5 on the cam and they still fired up but ran like sh*t or stalled. Are there any sensors that could cause this?
Any thoughts are appreciated, thanks.

[_lithium_]

Just a suggestion, but could it be a disty cap? I had mine f--- up to where everytime my cyl 2 wire was pressed down the car wouldn't start but if you pull it out an inch and let it spark onto the spark plug from a short distance, the car ran fine. They're only like $20 so it's a cheap fix if it is lol.

[Ryan]

Try posting a WTB. I have one I could send your way for probably around $70.

[caper587]

lithium-
I think I saw the post where you mention that, and I already tried it. No change. I work alot on snowmobiles and have found that works on fouled plugs or weak spark. As posted before, I did check the coil and had proper resistence on the secondary windings but couldn't get a proper reading on the primary windings. Is that possible or was I doing something wrong?

Ryan-
I appreciate the offer but am hesitant to buy used. You can't be expected to warranty a used electrical part and it's unknown how long it would last.
What about one of the crank sensors? Would that still allow spark but at the wrong time?

[Ryan]

I understand your hesitance.

I had a friend buy one online for his probe, it arrived defective, which clearly didn't help our troubleshooting.

I have at least put my spare in my car and seen it run with my own eyes.

The sensor on the crank is mostly a performance thing, but the 6 trigger sensor in the distributor does 90% of the spark timing. That is the one that usually goes, but when it does, you generally don't get spark, and often get a code 2.

[caper587]

What about checking the timing with a light. Will it give an accurate reading at the speed that the engine would be turning on the starter? Remember it won't fire up.

[Ryan]

It wouldn't hurt to try. I've never had to... but if the engine does say 200 RPM with the starter, thats less than half as much as low idle...

But really, it WILL work, just if your eyes can process it properly is the thing .

base ignition timing is 10º BTDC. I have no idea how that changes during cranking.

[Pritchett]

Well 1 tooth off my timing and my 2.5L ran a little rough, 2 teeth and it was real rough....mine was 6 teeth off(crank) when it jumped its timing and wouldn't start. So somewhere inbetween 3-6 teeth im guessing. Just pop the 4 bolts outta the top of your timing belt cover or enough that you can bend it back to see if both cam's are on their mark, then pull off your belts and pull your crank pulley off to see if it matches up as well...no need to take the entire cover off. You can still try to start it with it off, put the crank bolt back in so nothing flys out. Goodluck with your car!

[caper587]

Thanks all, I'll take alook at the timing first good day I get. The weather is still cold and damp and I've got a dirt driveway and yard. Not the greatest work area.

[Mazstyle]

whoops replied to the wrong thread!

[mazdags94]

Are your injectors opening? I had a similar problem on a sr20det, the injector drivers were fried in the ECU...

I can hear the injectors clicking and the plugs are wet after cranking the engine over a bit. Not a fuel prob.

[caper587]

Well, all that work today for nothing. Am I ever disgusted!
Pulled the belts and crank pulley and enough bolts from the t.b. covers to see the timing marks. Everything lines up.
Not fuel. Not timing. I can't see it being a major vac. leak. The car was only started for two mins. max. Just long enough to move it in the yard. Didn't even get warmed up, and it was running fine when I shut it off.
As I posted before, it has a fairly large spark off the plug when grounded but it isn't a good blue color. Will jump a spark from the plug to ground for about 4-5 mm. Won't jump spark from the plug cap to ground.
I couldn't get a proper ohms. reading on the primary coil windings but the secondary windings were 13.5. Don't know if thats possible. Maybe I was doing something wrong. I tried all the ohms. settings on my multi-meter when doing the primary windings.
Any ideas before I buy a $400 disty?

[ninjajim4]

this is a strange one.. it doesn't sound like a distributor problem to me...

Dan recently suggested to someone else to try clearing the ECU by disconnecting the battery and holding down the brake pedal for a minute. maybe give that a shot since it's quick, easy and free