KLZE Internal Components - final pic added

wyldside · Post by **wyldside** » August 2nd, 2006, 11:18 am

This is a question for all the KLZE gods out there.

I need to pull my KLZE appart due to extreme oil consumption. I'm talking 1Lt of oil everytime I fuel up. I believe I traced the problem to the #5 cylinder when doing a compression test. My NGK irridium spark plug was black with charred oil caked onto it.

I am now going to have the fun of pulling the heads off with the engine still in the car.

Since I will need to rebuild the heads, would I be safe in getting replacement parts for a 1995-2001 Millenia 2.5L. I will most likely need things like Valve guides/keepers, Valve springs, spring retainers, and perhaps a few HLA to replace worn out ones. I already have replacement Exhaust and Intake valve stem seals to correct the burning oil issue.

Also, if I have to get the valves grinded/machined, would 2.5L Millenia specs be safe?

Hopefully I am not asking one of my famous questions that no one can answer.

PATDIESEL · Post by **PATDIESEL** » August 2nd, 2006, 11:26 am

All the seals and such form a Millinea should work. (I think, this is what I've heard but have not rebuilt a ZE myself)
The valves and valve parts should also work. I would not have the valves ground, just get new ones. Also, I know there are differences in the new KL engines so I would stay below 1995 on ordering parts. Millinea S HLAs are better than KL HLAs if you can find them for a good price. They are solid and should make a few extra ponies and be more quite.
Good luck, it is going to be a good bit of work.
Make sure to check that it is not the piston ring that is bad before you get gung-ho on a head job.

wyldside · Post by **wyldside** » August 2nd, 2006, 11:32 am

Great advice on the Millenia S HLAs. I'll check those out. I hope I don't have to replace all the valves. The cheapest price I found on those suckers was $19USD EA. x24 is

I'm pretty sure that the piston rings are fine since I put some oil into the cylinder and tested again. The numbers didn't change. It's gotta be valves. I did the headgasket when I first installed the KLZE but nothing else internally.

Tunes67 · Post by **Tunes67** » August 2nd, 2006, 12:45 pm

Use DE valve spring keepers. They are stronger & thicker than the ZE ones. Also.. definately replace your exaust valves but you would be fine to do a grind on the intake valves, just make sure none are bent and you should have the valve seats in the heads ground as well. Likely the millenia spec springs & seals will be just fine as well. Take lots of pics while you are taking everything apart.. makes for good reference when you go to put it all back together and you can share the pics as well here. Good luck with your project

*Edit* I just re-read your post.. and a 1 Lt of oil per tank of gas seems a bit on the high side for valve seals.. I am not saying that it couldnt be all from bad valve seals.. But I think I would check the rings as well. Ring kits are fairly cheap.. though it would probably be easier to pull the engine out completely if you need to re-ring it. And you CAN have good compression #'s even when your oil control rings are shot. Best of luck man

Tunes67

lakersfan1 · Post by **lakersfan1** » August 2nd, 2006, 1:52 pm

PATDIESEL wrote:Also, I know there are differences in the new KL engines so I would stay below 1995 on ordering parts.

Considering the Millenia wasn't sold in the US until 95, you're suggesting he buy nothing.

All parts from any year Millenia 2.5 should work. I don't believe they bothered even with solid lifters up until the model ended in 2002 like they did with the 626 in upper years. The intake lifters are the only pieces you'd need to look up a Millennia 2.5 , however I still suggest disassembling lifters and soaking in kerosene to refresh them instead of repalcing. Replacing is a waste of money. The valves, valve guides, springs, etc, you can just look up the Ford Probe 2.5L since parts shops usually crossreference the Probe if they carry the part at all, but they often times will forget to crossreference to Millenia and MX3 for alot of our parts because those cars are so rare on the streets.

wyldside · Post by **wyldside** » August 2nd, 2006, 2:20 pm

I'll try to repeat the compression test tonight just to verify my results a little. I would hate to pull the whole engine out again. That was a bltch. But if the rings are gone, there isn't much choice. I guess I'll find out when I pull the heads. It's going to be hard to find 10.0:1 KLZE rings.

For rebuilding the HLAs, does that really work? I thought once the seals wear out, there isn't much that can be done. Would soaking them in varsol has the same effect in cleaning them? If I do replace them, perhaps I will go with the Solid lifters from +98 626 2.5L or the Millenia-S 2.3L for exhaust HLAs and just Millenia 2.5L Intake HLAs. Hopefully there are no complications with using a different type of HLA. I'll cross ref most of the parts I need to see if there is any price difference with the Ford Probe 2.5L parts.

lakersfan1 · Post by **lakersfan1** » August 2nd, 2006, 3:03 pm

10:1 piston rings??? LMAO! OK there. Good luck with that.

Tunes67 · Post by **Tunes67** » August 2nd, 2006, 3:09 pm

See there are usually 4 rings on each piston.. 3 that are oil control rings and 1 that is your compression ring. The compression ring is at the very top of the piston. The oil control rings are down the piston a little ways. Of the 3 oil control rings.. there is a top ring, a middle ring and a bottom ring. The top and bottom rings are pretty much identical.. the middle ring is usually very funky shaped and its the ring where oil is delivered to the cylinderwalls through the piston. Its the top and bottom oil control rings that usually go bad and start letting oil go by. The middle ring will harden or seize to the piston if oil changes are infrequent or a lot of crap gets in your engine. This will then have the oil being distributed unevenly around the piston.. which as a result causes the top and bottom rings to wear more in the areas where they arent getting proper lubrication.

Long story short.. a compression test will not reveal the condition of your oil control rings. Once you have your heads off.. you can rotate the crank and look down inside the cylinders at the walls.. if you cant see the hatch marks (hone marks) in areas of the cylinder walls anymore.. thats one visible indicator of wear on the oil control rings.

Before you tear into it.. if you can take the car in for an emissions sniffing.. High HC (Hydrocarbon) readings indicate lots of oil burning.. with the engine sitting and idling at full normal operating temp.. your HC on an emissions test should be under 100 if your rings are in good condition.. my HC reading on my RS was 19. On my truck before I did the rings it was 1547. My truck scored a 22 after I re-ringed all 4 pistons. Spark plugs burning a lot of oil will be seriously caked with black carbon.. spark plugs burning small amounts of oil will be white coated. Since you have one with severe amounts of carbon build up.. I'd bet the rings are sticking in that cylinder.

There is good news though.. sometime those rings stick when the engines have been sitting for a while.. its actually pretty common with JDM engines. Since you are already planning on ripping it apart.. try running a can of seafoam in your engine oil for 30-40 minutes of idling. A few midrange revs (4k-5k rpms) would be good to but dont sustain high rpms with the seafoam in the engine. Then change the oil.. make sure to let the oil drain completely, and change the filter too. Wouldnt hurt to dump a chaser quart of oil into it to make sure all the seafoam comes out the oil drain. There have been more than a few cases where seafoam will get oil control rings floating freely again and stop the oil blow by problems (like you are having on your #5 cylinder)

In the end.. you will still need to do the work.. but the seafoam could buy you a year of time to buy all the parts you need and or want for your rebuild. Cheers and good luck

Tunes67

Tunes67 · Post by **Tunes67** » August 2nd, 2006, 3:19 pm

As for buying the rings.. you should be able to ask for a chromoly set of DE piston rings.. since both engines are 2.5 liter engines.. the piston diameter should be the same (I am sure someone will correct me if I am wrong with that

) Chromoly rings generally last the longest.. but they also take the longest to break in properly. Cast iron rings are next.. most engine manufacturers use cast iron rings in their engines from the factory. Btw.. the material type the rings are listed as are ONLY a indicator of the material the compression ring is made out of.. yet the rings only come in complete sets.. just so your aware.

You will need to measure your cylinder walls in order to determine which size of rings to go with.. if your cylinders are badly worn.. you may need oversized rings and to have the block rehoned or resleeved. Babyblue will probably have more specifics on this since he has "Been there done that" already

Tunes67

wyldside · Post by **wyldside** » August 2nd, 2006, 4:02 pm

lakersfan1 wrote:10:1 piston rings??? LMAO! OK there. Good luck with that.

I didn't think it was that funny. Maybe I should have worded it differently but I meant the rings for the KLZE pistons. I thought for some reason they were slightly different due to the higher compression of the ZE.

Anyways, thanks Tune67 for the useful information regarding the pistons. I know quite a bit on engines but have limited experience when it comes to the very inner engine overhaul components like the finer details of piston ring etc. I really appreciate you taking the time to provide that.

Well, since a can of Seafoam is a lot cheaper to try, I will give it a shot first. I'll grab some on the way home from work tonight. I remember that when I originally had the engine appart to clean it a bit and change the head gasket, the cylinders did still have plenty of factory hatch marks remaining. Even the crank shaft bearing clearance was still good. I hope the seafoam helps because I really can't afford this right now. I haven't exactly shat out a few hundred dollar bills out of my a$$ lately, so keeping costs down would be nice. It's possible the Seafoam might clean up the valves and seals a little too. I know that something is messing up on the valves because it does make a pop out of the exhaust once in a while when shifting gears. (No it's not the timing)

I'll give it a shot and update you on what happens.

lakersfan1 · Post by **lakersfan1** » August 2nd, 2006, 4:24 pm

wyldside wrote:
lakersfan1 wrote:10:1 piston rings??? LMAO! OK there. Good luck with that.
I didn't think it was that funny.

I did. Hil - Ar - Ious.

wyldside · Post by **wyldside** » August 2nd, 2006, 6:25 pm

lakersfan1 wrote:
wyldside wrote:
lakersfan1 wrote:10:1 piston rings??? LMAO! OK there. Good luck with that.
I didn't think it was that funny.
I did. Hil - Ar - Ious.

You are so mean

Tunes67 · Post by **Tunes67** » August 2nd, 2006, 8:33 pm

No worries man. And you are still investigating at this point.. Seafoam may solve the problem.. but if not.. do the job right.. Yank the engine and take the pistons to a engine rebuilder and have him inspect the rings (unless you can spot obvious caking or other sludge type buildups) Then replace the rings and do the valve seals at the same time.. a valve grind wouldnt hurt either

Cheers

Tunes67

johnnyb · Post by **johnnyb** » August 2nd, 2006, 9:13 pm

if you need to do rings you don't need to take the engine out.

Just pull the heads and the oil pan and do it that way. Saves pulling the motor out.

V8KOMX3 · Post by **V8KOMX3** » August 2nd, 2006, 9:53 pm

I think this should be FAQ as it has great info and it gets asked alot