'96 ZE -> Constant Need of Spark Plug Cleaning?!

Overclock · Post by **Overclock** » March 8th, 2005, 12:48 pm

Each time I start the car to move it a short distance (across the street) I can't start it the next day unless I clean the plugs. Any idea what's up?

The last time it happened I had the plugs changed which doesn't seem to have remedied the situation since I just had to clean the plugs last night.

I know the engine is running very rich at the moment and have a KL02 + FPR on the way to fix that. Also, the idle has been jumping from 1000-to-1500rpms ever since I got it a month ago so I don't know if that might be a factor to the spark plug problem as well (TPS issue/broken maybe?).

Thanks

bmwm3guy · Post by **bmwm3guy** » March 8th, 2005, 12:52 pm

it is very possible hat you are running extremely rich... what ECU / IM are you using?

mazdubber · Post by **mazdubber** » March 8th, 2005, 12:55 pm

Short starts are never good. Even more so at sub-zero temperatures. During a cold start there is a lot of fuel dumped in. If you shut it off before it warms up that fuel can coat the plugs. So it's pretty much just flooding it.

jschrauwen · Post by **jschrauwen** » March 8th, 2005, 1:35 pm

I believe this is all still part of your original problem. Until you've replaced your FPR and acquired a KL02, you may have to hold off. Don't remember what ECU you're runnung (K8?). I too have those idle fluctuation issues and that's using the mods you see posted below. In an effort to rectify my similar issues I have a KL31 ECU enroute and I'm going to replace the AIT (Air Intake Thermosensor) (because it's missing) - that little 2 wire sensor that also has two vacuum lines running to it that was originally attached to the outside bottom edge of the the old K8 airbox. I believe my engine is serching for that air temp info not knowing if it's cold or hot and is defaulting to a cold setting thereby adding huge amounts of gas into the mixture - hence fouled plugs. I haven't encountered the severe plug situation like you but I definitely have a rich mixture issue. I don't know if the AIT is my major issue and no one on this BB has been able to answer that question to date, so this is only an alternative possibilty. The cummulative sum of the problems you've already addressed in other thread may be spilling over into this new? one. Hope this helps.
BTW, all the TPS / Idle adjustments in the world would not sort out my idle problems. That doesn't mean I've thrown in the towel, but I occassionally question my motives and reasons for the ZE swap, IT SHOULD NOT BE THIS MUCH OF A HASSLE!!!!

Overclock · Post by **Overclock** » March 8th, 2005, 3:37 pm

Yes running K8 ecu.

Alright, I'm going to attribute everything to the rich mixture for now and wait to see the results after the KL02 + fpr are installed. Wasn't sure if the spark plug issue was related or not hence the separate topic.

One more question. I only managed to clean the first three plugs last night since the back three were too deep for the tool I had. The car is running kind of strange (exhaust sounding fartier than normal) and even stalls when I come to a stop sometimes. Is it possible that one of the top cylinders that I didn't get to clean the plugs for isn't firing? Does it sound like my oil got contaminated from flooding?

jschrauwen · Post by **jschrauwen** » March 8th, 2005, 4:19 pm

Good choice on the wait for the parts. Can the other uncleaned plugs be making that "fartier sound.....quite probable..don't know. Can the fuel contaminating the oil do the same......can't see the fuel in oil generating any sound in the exhaust.....NO. As far as fuel slipping by into the sump...highly unlikely - Electric fuel pump. I'm no mechanic by any stretch, but if it were me and I still needed the use of the car until the parts arrived, I'd try a few creative ideas to circumvent our percieved problems. We've determined that the ecu is getting incorrect information from the wrong VAF. So when the throttle is depressed and the TB butterfly opens to create the vacuum in the intake tube to draw upon or open/ move the VAF, the VAF sends it's particular position to the ecu which in turn decides the amount of fuel required. What if we tried to fool the ECU as to the position of the VAF because obviously the amount of movement of the VAF corresponds to the amount of fuel delivered. If we were to restrict the amount of intake air from the air filter before it gets to the VAF. When the throttle is depressed and the TB butterfly opens and tries to draw air through the VAF, the VAF is not going to move as much because you've restricted the airflow to it. Now the ECU is getting the same message for the position of of the TB butterfly but now it's getting a different message as to the position of the VAF. The combination of the TB position and the altered VAF position information to the ECU may be enough to curtail your flooding issues....for now. I'm not sure what you can use to stiffle or restrict the air from getting through the air filter......be creative, but careful. Small/short test drive close to home to be safe. Don't want something comming loose in the engine bay. Hope this helps for now....let us know.....it's fairly new stuff to me too.....the ze stuff......steep learning curve here.

Chopperpozz · Post by **Chopperpozz** » March 8th, 2005, 8:01 pm

did u notice any change when u went from the k8 vaf to a kl-o2 vaf? i am having the same problems as the two of u.. been messing with it for two years on and off.,. don;t really drive the car all that much. its been in a barn for awhile.. but if u noticed any difference with going a kl vaf let me know thanks

jschrauwen · Post by **jschrauwen** » March 8th, 2005, 8:37 pm

Chopperpozz wrote:did u notice any change when u went from the k8 vaf to a kl-o2 vaf? i am having the same problems as the two of u.. been messing with it for two years on and off.,. don;t really drive the car all that much. its been in a barn for awhile.. but if u noticed any difference with going a kl vaf let me know thanks

Never put a KL02 on my K8. KL02 was part of the package configuration for the KLZE swap as set by Steve at A-Spec in Toronto. Initially he asked me if I wanted a kl31 ECU when doing the ZE swap and I said no because of the quoted price ($300.). BIG...BIG mistake. This poor choice resulted in having to use other components to match as closely to the ZE as possible without the availability of a KL31 ecu. Kick myself in the a-- now. Once I get the KL31 ecu, I'll be going back with the complimenting JE50 VAF (K8 VAF), because that's what works. Go figure, you'd think that a 626 2.5L VAF would best suit the KLZE, but this BB says otherwise.

Aston Wards · Post by **Aston Wards** » March 9th, 2005, 4:39 am

what worked for me (KF with auto) was using an AFC, i couldn't use a KF ecu because it didn't gel with the tranny...., i don't see why this wouldn't work for you..., and from what i've read, a KL02 AFM isn't perfect either. Basically, you need to change the values the AFM is sending the ECU

The AFC i used was a Link systems Interceptlink...

Hope this helps,
Aston

Overclock · Post by **Overclock** » March 9th, 2005, 1:03 pm

I surmise my idle issue will not be resolved by the KL02 + FPR combo?

Overclock · Post by **Overclock** » March 9th, 2005, 11:46 pm

Remeber that I said I only managed to clean the first three plugs earlier this week and that the car was running strange/weak + stalls when I come to a stop? Well I started her up again today and something is really wrong. I don't know if I'm losing my mind but it feels like I lost 50hp. Can this really be only due to the three back spark plugs that haven't been cleaned yet??

I'm taking the car to a garage tomorrow for a back plate adjustment and want to get this power loss/ stalling thing fixed at the same time. I know they are going to suggest a dozen extra things to fix so they can rip me off so I'd like a battle plan of what to tell them to fix with no questions asked. Does this really sound like a mere spark plug cleaning issue?

jschrauwen · Post by **jschrauwen** » March 10th, 2005, 12:25 am

Aston -- AFC...??

Overclock, did you try restricting the amount of intake air flow from the filter/breather like I mentioned previously? If I remember, you have a CAI - thick plastic bag securely covering about 4/5's might reveal somthing. Somrthing to try before the shop and after you clean the rear plugs.

Overclock · Post by **Overclock** » March 10th, 2005, 12:48 am

Didn't try restricting the air flow yet and at this point with the engine now stalling at idle I'm not sure if I want to restrict the engine any further. I'm not planning to run the car until the VAF and FPR arrive anyway.

My concern at the moment is the power loss and engine stalling that manifested after the last time my car wouldn't start and I had to clean the front plugs. Sorry to be a pain but I just don't want the garage to rape me if I tell them to try to fix it.

jschrauwen · Post by **jschrauwen** » March 10th, 2005, 1:04 am

Check parallel thread about excessive fuel use........he reset his timing, which apparently was way off. I'd give that a stab too, what can it hurt to verify? That person's timing belt may have jumped a tooth or so and the ecu was able to compensate. That's what may be happening to you. I had a timing belt jump a lot of teeth on my MPV (don't ask) and I couldn't even get it started. Lots of spark in the plugs, tons of fuel getting in the engine compartment and I just could not figure it out. It was during one of the coldest nights of the year and because it was still under warranty I had it towed to the shop. I had no idea at the time of the non-interference aspects of Mazda's products. The timing belt had jumped a lot of teeth, and would continue to turn over but not start. Your case is not that severe but enough that merits a quick check of the timimg. Did you happen to mention when the last time you changed the timing belt? Hope this helps!!!

Aston Wards · Post by **Aston Wards** » March 10th, 2005, 3:32 am

By using the wrong ECU for the engine, fuel is being dumped into the cylinders, this is where your problems stem from, there is no point addressing any other problems till you sort out your fuel issues, i understand you can't use a ZE ecu cos of OBDII, maybe the KL02 will fix this, where are the posts from the guys that use this setup????

the interceptlink worked for me in a similar situation

http://www.link-electro-usa.com/