Ryan needs a soundboard for KL build

[Inodoro Pereyra]

What's fair or not is debatable. We live in a World where a dragster with a CF shell is called a "Camaro" or a "Mustang" just because they have an emblem in the front. If you want to talk about "fair", then it's just as unfair to cal a turboed ZE a ZE, since ZEs are N/A engines.

[_-Night-Shade-_]

Like I said, I haven't seen it. I read about it.

http://www.davidandjemma.com/mazda/KL.htm

Scroll down to about half the article, and you will read:

"The highest HP KL's that I've heard of were 480bhp out of the stock 2.5L of displacement, but funny enough they were the normally aspirated IMSA motors."

And that's all I know about that one.

Ah yeah, I've read through that before. Hardly enough info for making such claims though.

[_-Night-Shade-_]

What's fair or not is debatable. We live in a World where a dragster with a CF shell is called a "Camaro" or a "Mustang" just because they have an emblem in the front. If you want to talk about "fair", then it's just as unfair to cal a turboed ZE a ZE, since ZEs are N/A engines.

I'm not getting into this argument with you. It's very simple: if I were to ask you for direct examples of KLs that are in that power range, none of them would be N/A. Hopes and aspirations are nice but let's not start throwing misinformation out there.

[Inodoro Pereyra]

I don't see why. Like I said, from a mechanical standpoint, it's nothing special. 2.4L Formula 1 engines are N/A, limited to run on pump gas, and are ELECTRONICALLY LIMITED to 1000 HP. And THOSE engines run at 18000 RPM, max.
Besides that, what would be "enough info for making such claims" to you? I have personally gotten 180 HP from a 1.4L engine. Like I said before, people have been brainwashed into believing the only way to gain horsepower is throwing a ton of money into an engine. That's just not true. There are lots of ways you can increase an engine power delivery without hardly spending a dime. You just have to spend more time finding a way to do it, than saying it can't be done.

What's fair or not is debatable. We live in a World where a dragster with a CF shell is called a "Camaro" or a "Mustang" just because they have an emblem in the front. If you want to talk about "fair", then it's just as unfair to cal a turboed ZE a ZE, since ZEs are N/A engines.

I'm not getting into this argument with you. It's very simple: if I were to ask you for direct examples of KLs that are in that power range, none of them would be N/A. Hopes and aspirations are nice but let's not start throwing misinformation out there.

There was no argument in this thread until now. You threw the "fair" comment. The fact that there are more turbo 400+ Kls doesn't mean it's more "fair" to call them KLs than a N/A one, nor it's proof that a N/A one is not feasible. There are countless examples of 400+ HP, 2.5L and under, racing engines.
Finally, the "misinformation" I'm throwing is based on a written article, while the "information" you're throwing is based solely in your opinion.

[Inodoro Pereyra]

Either way, we're ruining a good thread with a confrontation that has nothing to do with it. If you have PROOF that the 480HP KL I cited doesn't exist, post it, otherwise, please, let's stop hijacking this thread.

Sorry Ryan. I'll shut up now.

[MrMazda92]

Like I said, I haven't seen it. I read about it.

http://www.davidandjemma.com/mazda/KL.htm

Scroll down to about half the article, and you will read:

"The highest HP KL's that I've heard of were 480bhp out of the stock 2.5L of displacement, but funny enough they were the normally aspirated IMSA motors."

And that's all I know about that one.

Inodoro, That article mentions the ZE being 10.0:1 CR, didn't you mention it being 9.5:1? Just clarifying, I'm trying to cover all my bases.

I'm interested in this article though, it has some amazing thoughts and information. I'm going to start actually delving into it deeply tomorrow.

Thanks guys!!!

[Ryan]

SPening a good 30 mins thoroughly reading this thread over on PT...


Theres a few more things to consider on shaving the head.

Primarily, shaving te head changes the distance the path the timing belt must take. Shaving .03 as accounted for approximately 1/2 tooth, which is enough to negate any performance you're gained shaving it. leo323 has taken .050 off without inteference, and he has huge cams in there, too.

So, bottom line, I'd need adjustable cam pulleys too.

So... I can do wrist pins at Mazda for free. Cheap 11:1 egay pistons? Pistons are never the weak link in KL's.... but I can't find any

I think I'm stuck with a regular old ZE....

[onlytrueromeo]

This is why we turbo. It's far easier/cheaper to make power.

You won't find 11:1 KL pistons for cheap. Custom = $800

[Inodoro Pereyra]

Inodoro, That article mentions the ZE being 10.0:1 CR, didn't you mention it being 9.5:1? Just clarifying, I'm trying to cover all my bases.

I'm interested in this article though, it has some amazing thoughts and information. I'm going to start actually delving into it deeply tomorrow.

Thanks guys!!!

Yep. I did say the ZE was 9.5:1, and then Nd4sp corrected me. That's when I found that article.
So, to summarize my mistake:

KL-DE 9.2:1
KL-G4 9.5:1
KL;ZE 10:1

Yes, it's a good article. And nice pics too. One can only dream to have an engine that clean...

I wish I could find information about the G4 though...

SPening a good 30 mins thoroughly reading this thread over on PT...


Theres a few more things to consider on shaving the head.

Primarily, shaving te head changes the distance the path the timing belt must take. Shaving .03 as accounted for approximately 1/2 tooth, which is enough to negate any performance you're gained shaving it. leo323 has taken .050 off without inteference, and he has huge cams in there, too.

So, bottom line, I'd need adjustable cam pulleys too.

So... I can do wrist pins at Mazda for free. Cheap 11:1 egay pistons? Pistons are never the weak link in KL's.... but I can't find any

I think I'm stuck with a regular old ZE....

Hmmm...Yep. I admit I haven't thought of that. You will definitely need adjustable cam pulleys.

I don't know if you're gonna find 11:1 pistons for the KL, but I'm pretty sure a head shave and a set of adjustable pulleys are gonna be cheaper than them.

Don't get discouraged. You chose the difficult path. That's how we learn.
Besides, imagine the pride, to know YOU are directly responsible for each and every one of those extra horsies you're gonna get.

[Ryan]

maybe I'll put clay on the top of a piston, turn it over to TDC and back, and weld strips on metal in where the clay is thickest and won't interfere!

or not.



I'll just do a regular sam joe bob bill rebuild. DE block, ZE pistons, DE heads, and Milli(G4?) intake.

With the little touches along the way. Polish and balance perhaps. Port. Thermos. Fidanza... MX-3.com stickers...

[Inodoro Pereyra]

MX-3.com stickers...

There, you'll have at least another 20 HP...

[Ryan]

UDP?

Yes? No? I'll be balancing and hopefully a Fidanza as well...


Also,

http://forums.probetalk.com/showthread.php?t=1701035634" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Heads: Nobody has really flowbenched our heads to find where the real performance gains can be had. Removing casting marks, smoothing things out and basically cleaning them up is always a good thing (well, unless you screw up flow). Decking the heads is possible as our engines are non-interferance. I believe .055" is the maximum the heads can be decked before the engine becomes interferance (Mazda Comp). .035" will require you to adjust your timing. Stem seals are included in the Flatlander kit.

Another cool quote from PT!

The tech guys at Manley Performance
and Eibach took a look at some of the OE valve springs and retainers I sent
down to them and found a defect in the way springs are manufactured.

Until you pull the cam and HLA it's almost impossible to see the broken
retainers. Even looking in the intake port you will still see the valve stem
since saying the valve drop down into the cylinder is false since doesn't
fall out completely. The valve seal prevents that. One of my heads the valve
stem bent so the valve was only about .100" off the seat and the engine ran
well but rough until the other retainer broke and lost all compression in
the cylinder. The second time the valve just drop down enough that the
piston would slap it at TDC. and had zero compression immediately. The guys
at Manely and Eibach say that the ends of the springs are not honed and have
a sharp, almost barbed end that dig into the spring retainer. This will
cause a stress fracture point on all the -ZE intake retainers eventually.
The retainer themselves are forged rather that machined so looking at the
ones that have cracked, you see the grain structure of the steel is tight
and compact on one side and very granular on the other side making for a
very weak structure. I guess if the tip of the spring is over the weak spot
of the retainer they fail sooner rather than later. BTW I only recently
found that Eibach actually produces valve springs for several engine
manufactures."

[Inodoro Pereyra]

UDPs are an option, but don't go crazy on them, especially if you have a big a$$ sound system. I would NOT underdrive things like the water pump, for example.
A good, fairly cheap way to gain a few horses, is to get rid of the power steering, for example.

Now, I'm starting to read on the last thread you quoted, and the oiling issue caught my attention. Getting rid of the oil pump, and installing an electrical unit will also give you a couple of extra horses, while increasing oil pressure. And improving flow, especially to #6 bearing, should also be on your to do list.

Now I'm gonna do some more reading. That thread is looooooooooonnnggggg...

[Ryan]

Tell me about it, I'm on page 8

[MrMazda92]

Yep. I did say the ZE was 9.5:1, and then Nd4sp corrected me. That's when I found that article.
So, to summarize my mistake:

KL-DE 9.2:1
KL-G4 9.5:1
KL;ZE 10:1

Yes, it's a good article. And nice pics too. One can only dream to have an engine that clean...

I wish I could find information about the G4 though...

Alright, I'm very intrigued by everything you have brought forward in this thread. I'm more into unique and special builds myself, and would gladly take a 250 BHP N/A KL over a 350 BHP TB'd one anyday. Less maintenance, less cost(patience is a big part of this it seems), and you have something not many people can honestly duplicate.
If I find anything interesting in my own research, I'll do my best to adequately convey it here. I'll help any way I can =)