Valve stem seals ALL unseated?

[SuperK]

We just had the head checked out again, we explained the issue and asked them to check for any oil leaking possibilities.

The stem seals and the guides were all in top shape. A tiny play in the guides, but as soon as you put guides in, they're going to have a little play in them.


I talked to some mechanics and one was telling me there was a honda guy with the exact same problem I had. He told me the story:

Guy had head work done, stem seals, head gasket, ect.
installed the head, still smoked.
Guy returned the head and had them check out the guides and such. Everything checked out OK.
Guy reinstalls head, same problem still.

He broke down and bought rings for the engine. Turns out his compression rings are OK, but the oil ring itself collapsed.

We went to the car and pushed the cylinders down by hand. Cleaned the cylinder walls with a rag, and pushed the other two down by hand.
Turns out with a few rotations simply by pushing the pistons by hand, the cylinder walls are damp with oil.

Time to order new rings. Great.

I ordered (another) head gasket, rings, and rod bearings.

As I understand it, we can drain the oil, drop the oil pan,
unbolt the rod guides and pull the piston up out of the top.

We're doing this in a parking lot, and I've never done it before.
We're going to do this one piston at a time, and put everything back together in the same direction and way and face as the original

I am told to install the new bearings dry?

any advice is greatly appreciated. We're doing this in my apartment parking lot (after the maintenance crew quits for the evening)

And we've never done bottom end work before. This'll be the first time. (There's one for everything right?)

Thanks so far guys, you've been a lot of helps.

[Mi|<E]

I would not install anything dry, especially bearings. Get some engine
assembly lube its thick and will stay where you put it.

Your method will work unbolting from the bottom and pulling out from
the top.

Id suggest a piston ring expander (puts new rings on) if your not ready
to spend some time making sure you dont bend the rings the wrong way
and cause weak spots which leads to having to do it over again.

Hone the cylinders before you replace the re ringed pistons or the new rings
wont seat.

Remember the mark goes 'UP' I think its a U or R or N on the rings.
When you put the rings on also have all the gaps at different ends of the
piston and not right under each other.

Oh one more thing you will need is a torque wrench and some twelve point
sockets for the bottom end. (rod bottoms)

And just a recap do NOT install the new bearings dry. Wet lubed bearings are
happy bearings.

[Ryan]

I just did this to my BP.

Drain your oil well. Remove the head.

Take off your oil pan, and whatever else is between you and your crankshaft. Take off the bottom half of the bearing, put two 2-3" hoses onto the bolt ends exposed. Using some tool (soft, preferablly) push against the base of the bolt to push the cyl out the top. The hose will stop the bolts from scratching the cyl walls.

Pull the piston out the top and break the rings out. Use a broken ring to clean out the grooves, or use a tool if you have one. If you want, soak them in carb cleaner overnight to loosen up the carbon. Don't damage or round out the grooves in any way.

There is a specific way to reinstall the rings, I think 30º off of centre either way. Check the manual. Installing the rings wrong will cause it to burn oil again. Mike is right about the marked side up. I didn't use a tool to install them, I just was careful in bending them a little, inserting one side, and sliding it around untill it popped into place.

Honing is a must. Its a tool most places will have, I used a pneumatic one. (air powered rotary tool, with fancy stones on it in a fancy spring dealie). I suggest taking off the oil squirters for this so you don't bend them.(if you have them?) Also, don't let the tool pop out of the block as it will round out the bore at the top.

Don't forget to put the rubbers back on the bolts. Use a ring tool to re-insert the piston. Its basically a big circular clamp that pushes the rings in, so that when you put the piston back into the block, they don't get caught on the edge...

Push it down by hand, and admire the smooth motion. At the bottom, pop out the bearings if you didn't already, and reinstall the new ones. I used white lithium grease on the bearings (this goes for the friction side only, duh). Make sure there is ZERO dirt on them. Take off rubbers, reinstall onto crank, re torque (60ftlbs? don't take my word on that, check the book. Add a bit, or at least use the upper limit) I'm pretty sure the caps only go on one way (specific to bearings)

Yay, repeat.

The head bolts are reuseable, but you can't really measure them without a very good caliper. I wouldn't be afraid to trust them.


Ryan

[wytbishop]

I would not hone an engine that I couldn't thoroughly clean afterwards. There will be dust from the honing and it will stay in your engine...and bearings.

I understand that you're in a tight spot, but I am going to go on the record that this is a bad idea. If you don't hone the cylinders, the rings will probably not seat perfectly but if you do the mess will destroy your bearings. I would not re-ring unless I had the engine out and could hone and then thoroughly clean before reassembly.

If you must re-ring it without pulling it, don't hone the cylinders and start saving now for a proper rebuild.

My $.02.

[dabckid]

If you do hone it in the car (not the best idea) make sure you use lots of automatic trans oil in your cylinders(get a friend to help)
Make sure your honing stones are medium or fine grit.
Use a cordless drill set at its lowest speed and move it up and down each cylinder in a slow and steady movement 3 or four times(using lots of trans oil).
After you are done, degrease the shizzle out of it make sure it is clean top to bottom(only use clean lintless rags)
You should now see bright hone marks on the walls of your cylinders in a wide diamond shape.
After it is degreased, use engine assembly lube on rings(outside) and all bearings and maiting surfaces.

Make sure your water and oil holes are covered before you start, and you have a large catch basin under your engine.

L88888888

B

[SuperK]

I unfortunately must rering it without pulling the engine.

I got the ring kit cheap, there's an amazing parts store that deals wholesale to the dealer and as well to machine shop customers down in columbus ga. He felt bad so he ordered some parts for me and had them drop shipped to me here in chattanooga.

I understand I'm not going to be able to do a full proper rebuild in my situation... but if my rering job doesn't hold up for too long, then I'm only out 50 dollars and some time.

But at least I can drive the car... and in the future, when I need to do a proper rebuild, I can take it to my pop's garage and can properly pull the engine that way.

[Ryan]

If you hone it wet the mess would be minimal... maybe cover your crankshaft in rags when you do it so you don't drip the metal shaving-oil mixture all over it. Wipe down the cyl walls after and the junk would be minimal. 10 minutes on cheap oil and an excellent filter should be okay.

Or cheap it and do it well next time. Your choice.

[ttgoth]

I just checked mine they are all at the same hight, and they are all high up like yours. If they were at different heights I would think there might be a problem. But I am also burning oil so I might have a problem my seals.

[SuperK]

Hey guys, I replaced the rings today.

The oil ring was completely flush with the piston all 360 degrees and was stuck in one place, it couldn't move.

Is this what they call a collapsed ring?

my compression rings were just fine, but the oil rings on all of the cylinders were flush with the piston and stuck.

[SuperK]

Hey guys, I am confident I solved the problem!

We replaced the rings and finished putting the engine back together.

It was a very easy job in reality. We were careful and thorough.
The cylinder walls were super clean and still had the factory hone marks, not even a lip on the rim.

She's running very well, took her out for her maiden voyage, and the exhaust is cleaning out the carbon on the tailpipe even.

I'll be real easy on her for a while, but I am very happy.

Thanks for everyone's help and input, it helped a lot when we were disassembling the pistons.

[ooELMOoo]

Hey super-K.I am replacing piston rings this weekend. Any advice or tool list that you used.

Went through the online manual and looks like I just need valve spring compressor/valve seal remover and stuff to drain/replace oil. I will be doing this with the engine in!.

How long did it take? Any pictures or guidance would be great!!!

[SuperK]

hmmm, well, it usually takes a bit to clean up your pistons from all the carbon and gunk.

I didn't rehone my cylinder walls, that was a judgement call though. The walls on mine you could still see the factory hone marks, and there was no lip.

Make sure you have a nice torque wrench handy, everything needs to be torqued.

A bunch of gasket sealer is a must, I got the ultra black permatex stuff. The main bearing support and oil pan do not have gaskets, just gasket sealer.

There are two gaskets on both sides of the crank though, that does call for a replacement gasket, you might want to order those if you haven't.
Also get some engine assembly lube.
Did you get the connecting rod bearings? Might as well, they're cheap and easy to replace.
I got the piston ring compressor and the ring expander/remover/installer.

If you are doing this in one day, you just wanna scrub the pistons clean with some degreaser/carb cleaner. clean the ring grooves with an old ring.
remember to install the rings correct position on each piston, I would suggest only taking one piston out at a time, cleaning it up, and installing it in the same position.

If you need a hone, ask someone else. I dunno , haha!

Did you get a replacement head gasket? front seal, maybe while you're at it? Or do all your seals? Reworking your head? Getting a gasket set, maybe?
It took a couple hours to remove the head and a couple hours to remove the pistons.

Plan on spending two days if it's your first time. One for disassembly and one for reassembly.

[SuperK]

Also remember you'll be redoing your timing and such, so maybe you could go for gold:
new water pump, if your tensioners are making noises, replace those (they go bad in all of them it seems. Sound like gerbil wheels)
New belts, new timing belt, cam seals, front main seal, distributor o-ring, valve cover gasket, valve stem seals, thermostat?

also remember you have to replace your exhaust manifold gasket and intake manifold gasket as well.

If you want to order a crapload of stuff I suggest calling benningautoparts.com. They got stuff rockauto doesn't, it's better quality (they service the mazda dealer with parts)
better price than rockauto and ask if they can drop-ship to your location.
They use rock products, and let me tell you, looking at their head gasket, they make some quality products.

[ooELMOoo]

Thanks for the great info!!!.

This sounds like its going to be a long haul . But a good learning experience.

Will let you know how it goes!

[wytbishop]

It cannot be overstated.

TAKE YOUR TIME!

You're going to get into it, and it'll be going pretty well, and you're gonna think...pfft...this is easy! It is easy, but its delicate and every detail is really important. Be anal. Be thorough. Go slowly and be careful.