KLZE AWD Swap Research!

[onlytrueromeo]

So one of the projects I would love to get to doing (if its at all feasible) would be build an AWD ZE mx3. I know this is no easy task...there are only a handful of AWD mx3's, and all of them are 4bangers.

The AWD platform comes from the 323, which doesn't bolt up to our cars, but does fit on our rear end nicely. I know that you'd hafta reroute exhaust, and redo some tunnel work (all minor really) and cut out the spare tire well, then reinforce the back end.

Up front, I know they needed to modify the front rack I believe to be able to fit the AWD tranny.

Now please don't treat me as a noob because I am asking these questions. I have done research already and am not planning to do this sometime soon...So...

I know the ZE bolts up to a Gseries tranny, and RS's come w/ Fseries trannys. BP's however come w/ g-series trannys, just with a different bell housing than the ZE uses. How hard would it be to get a ZE to bolt up to this tranny? Custom adapter plate would be possible? Would it fit in the engine bay? Assume that I would already be planning on doing custom axles, so that's not a problem, I just want to put an AWD tranny on a KL block. I know the only AWD trannies for the KL are auto's from the stupid telstar...I would never consider doing an auto swap, so that's out of the question.

I also know the guys on probetalk are working on a way to adapt a 6speed tranny from a toyota or something. I know its possible to do anything w/ enough time and money, but there is no point to wasting money on a project when it will really not be able to compete in any way w/ another AWD platform. The reason I want to convert the mx3 is because I know the 323 is a good AWD platform, but I don't quite like the look of the 323, and I love my ZE mx3. If it would cost $20,000 just to get the engine+tranny in there though, there is no point when I can buy a Celica st185 and make it much nastier. If it only cost 3-5k to get the 2 to fit in the car (assuming I did most of the welding and whatnot), I think it is worth it. (This price would not include price of motor or tranny or axles or suspension, etc - just labor and parts to make them fit.


What do you think? I like the ZE far better than the BP, that is why I sold my RS and bought my GS. I know people have made some great numbers w/ the BP or even the FE3N (Rafi) and I dont know of any other 10sec mx3s, but the KL engines have more appeal to me...they sound better, theyre better balanced, and, well, they aren't 4bangers.


Thoughts?

[Daninski]

Great idea. I'm sure you'll get input on this.

[Nd4SpdSe]

I can't say that that hasn't crossed my mind, but for a KL, I don't think it's beneficial unless you're running a turbo. And that's not even to compensate for the extra weight, but to have the power to actually take advantage of the extra traction you're putting to the ground. Unless your making like 200ft-lbs of torque. Yes the GTX made like 132hp, but also that car, even being a lightweight 323, weighs at much as a Mx-3 GS, but with the AWD system, you'll be added onto that Mx-3's weight. And with the GTX being a rally car, there's never too much traction, and your not just trying to make a car better, but you want to do this work for performance reasons too, to make the work and money invested worth while. For the launch, a ZE isn't THAT powerful to NEED AWD, and that extra weight would hurt the top end.

Also, AWD parts are rare, and old, not really something that works in favor of a project, expecially if something breaks....

That's my $0.02

[onlytrueromeo]

Oh, I didn't mention what I planned to do w/ the rest of the setup in this thread...it would definitely have to be turbod, because a ZE can put all the power to the ground so there is no point for AWD...but a turbo KL can't put nearly any of its power on the ground unless youre running slicks, and I would be building this car for a DD application...my goal is around 350-400AWHP, which I think is extremely doable w/ 9.5:1 CR forged pistons and Either Millenia S rods or another forged rod. I would plan on beefing up the tranny I use as well, full rebuild, cryo treated, and I believe it's 2nd and 3rd gear that are the weakest in Mazda trannys. I'd be keeping most of the interior, but adding a roll-cage for extra rigidity. Like I said, long term project idea that I won't be starting for awhile, if ever!

[se7en]

hmm..I am thinking of this as a project as well...

the only thing stopping you of me is the tranny bolting up issue...

the turbo part was the easy part, as will be the tranny/driveshaft tunnel, and rear dif...

mating a good usable tranny is the problem I am trying to fix right now.

oh,....my turbo k8 has way too much power to ever hook with anything short of a drag slick.

hmm...I do have a friend with a spare DSM AWD trans laying around...if only I had a spare kl block to mess around with to see if I can get them to mate..... (I am a machinist after all...)

any further updates on this would be greatly smiled upon.

[onlytrueromeo]

I wouldn't mind going outside the mazda family to find a tranny that fits...but I doubt any will w/o some sort of adapter plate. As for wanting an extra block, go to a junkyard and pick up a k8 block or a cheap kl block! If I had any j/y's around here I'd start doing this...but I don't and its normally cold (although today its 40 degress outside and everyone is confused because it was -5 yesterday!)

It would also be an absolute necessity to have a LSD for both the front and back...why would you spend so much time/money to build an amazing drivetrain when it won't be that amazing at all!

The 323AWD tranny can hold about 300whp stock I believe, which is not enough for what I would like to do...even though I know that is a REALLY nice number for an old car, I am not building cars to race only, I want a DD that I can have fun with at the track occasionally...a true multi purpose vehicle...besides, who wouldn't want a really fast AWD turbo mx3. If people can have mx3's do 0-60 in ~4seconds w/o AWD, imagine being able to hang w/ the big guys with a 3.x 0-60 time...launches would be amazingly fun with our light car (I know it'd be heavier than a 323), and I'm betting the 1/4mile times would also drop significantly.

The problem is I know alot of cars that had AWD trannys but they're all autos...that rules out minivans and most sedans. Maybe a Subbie or evo tranny! 6speed AWD tranny FTW!

The search continues!

[Mnemonic]

ahrm start looking at the bellhousing... they are swappable...

[onlytrueromeo]

What bellhousing are you referring to? I know the Gseries internals fit in many different bellhousings, but the bellhousings don't fit the KL blocks. It would need to be an AWD bellhousing...

[Mnemonic]

start looking at the trannies more in detail... You'll notice something from them that will make you slap yourself in the face for not noticing before... Moca figured it out, but none of us want to go that crazy...

[onlytrueromeo]

I'll hafta look up some pictures, I don't have any trannies or blocks layin around

[Mnemonic]

I'll just say this much, mounting it to the block isn't the problem lol its everything else...

[onlytrueromeo]

Mounting it to the block and fitting it properly in the engine bay I saw as the 2 hardest things, if it fits on a KL block then cool! But I dont even know if the 323 tranny would be good enough for what I want...

If you swap the bell housings to a FWD version, how would you connect to the rear diff? I'm confused...

[Mnemonic]

i would say the tranny would help greatly in getting more power from the wheels to the ground, it will definitely increase your launch performance, more than likely completely eliminating wheel hop as now the power is spread across all 4 instead of just the front 2

[wytbishop]

If you could swap a G25M-R bell housing onto a 323 AWD tranny it would bolt directly to a KL block.

[onlytrueromeo]

Yes but that bell housing is FWD...oh wait I think Im missing the big picture...lol

If you take only the part that mounts to the block, and disconnect it in the middle than the 323 AWD tranny/internals will bolt RIGHT to that?

Now, if that's true, Im an idiot, but I guess its not entirely my fault because I havn't gotten my hands on a 323 tranny yet, nor have I ever seen one personally.