KLZE questions, need the pro's

[94mx3precidia]

Hey, well ive been hanging low for some time now just reading and searching topics gathering as much info as i can regarding the swap ill be doing and i have a few questions.

1. replacing the clutch. ive read alot about clutches and im going with either exeedy or bully. Now.... should i get like a stage 2 or stage 3 from a mx3? or.... does the mx6 stock clutch bolt up? ive searched and i only found topics talking about what types to use and not from what vehicle.

2. if im looking for a good low klm engine ill pull off the front valve cover and look for silver to light golden right? that would mean about 30k or less? Does anyone have any pictures of how golden it should be?

3. Now i know this has been spoken so many times but i keep reading different things. If im looking for a true ze, but with a curve neck i should be looking for kl31-101 on the heads, and kl31 on the cams right?

4. KLZE compression. I heard it should be close to 200 and close to 220. Which one is it?

5. Removing the cam caps and inspecting. how worn should they be? should there be visible scratches but you cant feel them with your finger nail? Does anyone have any pictures?

6. EGR system. now i know the ze has no egr, do i just plug my exhaust and leave it alone?

7. Is $1500 installed seem like a good price? That includes all shop supplies and no other hidden fees they tell me.

Thats it for now. Ill be checking engines at japan power this weekend. they say they have about 5 curve neck ze's in stock and id really like to be a pro at telling the difference between curveneck de's and curve neck ze's, and what condition there in.

Thanks alot.

[solo_ryder]

Hey, well ive been hanging low for some time now just reading and searching topics gathering as much info as i can regarding the swap ill be doing and i have a few questions.

1. replacing the clutch. ive read alot about clutches and im going with either exeedy or bully. Now.... should i get like a stage 2 or stage 3 from a mx3? or.... does the mx6 stock clutch bolt up? ive searched and i only found topics talking about what types to use and not from what vehicle.

There are lots of applications for our cars, as far as I know exedy only makes a OEM replacement, check out ACT, clutchmasters, spec etc. Get a 93 probe gt or mx6 clutch as it is 10mm larger and usually cheaper.

A stage 2 should be fine, but do as you wish.

2. if im looking for a good low klm engine ill pull off the front valve cover and look for silver to light golden right? that would mean about 30k or less? Does anyone have any pictures of how golden it should be?

That is not always a tell tale sign, but it does help, I doubt you will find a motor that is less then 30k, here is a pic of my motor which now has I estimate about 80,000km (Canadian):




This is pretty clean from what I have seen, if it is abit dirtier that is ok. If it is DARK gold or brown/black that could mean it is a higher mile motor or it was neglected from getting proper oil changes.

3. Now i know this has been spoken so many times but i keep reading different things. If im looking for a true ze, but with a curve neck i should be looking for kl31-101 on the heads, and kl31 on the cams right?

You aren't gonna find a curve neck with kl31 cams (very small change it will have kl31), they all have kl01 cams because that was the cam designed for the millenia motor (lower rpm for max tq and hp) only the straight neck has the kl31 cams. Both have kl31-1a1 and kl31-101 heads. If you want a true ZE get a straight neck motor and swap a curve neck IM on it.

4. KLZE compression. I heard it should be close to 200 and close to 220. Which one is it?

Depending on elevation, should be about 200-215 area, there shouldnt be more then a 10psi difference in the cylinders.

5. Removing the cam caps and inspecting. how worn should they be? should there be visible scratches but you cant feel them with your finger nail? Does anyone have any pictures?

This shouldn't be a issue, if the valve train by eye, then the caps should be ok, I dont hear many stories of scored cam caps and cams.

6. EGR system. now i know the ze has no egr, do i just plug my exhaust and leave it alone?

Yes, plug the old EGR hole, if you are getting headers, do the same. You will not be hooking up the old EGR vac lines

7. Is $1500 installed seem like a good price? That includes all shop supplies and no other hidden fees they tell me.

Thats not to bad, however, you are gonna run into other costs. fluids, clutch, possible mounts etc. Be prepared to pay more.

Hope this info helps.

[wytbishop]

A couple of points to add...or confirm. That picture of Solo's engine is excellent. If you see one like that you're in luck. Don't run your fingernail across the cam journal bearing. The bearing material (called "babbit") is soft and you'll damage it. A bearing which has had particulate pass through it and been damaged will look "wiped". Imagine getting dirt in a slightly soft paint job and wiping it off. That's bad in an engine. But Solo's also right that if it looks good to the eye, the bearings are probably fine.

And $1500 sounds pretty good to me. If the engine you get is in good condition, but you will need new exhaust.

[Daninski]

Replace the mounts for sure with stronger ones. 1.8's are designed for 130 hp and the ZE puts out over 170. Your clutch will depend on how you want to drive it. Most of us would never need more than a stage two. Stage three if you have a lot of money (you know who you are out there).

[ElectricEnergy]

Surely that head was cleaned.

Crap, I hope mine is ok. It's WAY darker than that.

[solo_ryder]

No man, the head was like that when I got it, that is why I kept the motor as it was so clean.

As for mounts, check our AWR mounts. Get the Probe front mount and the mx3 rear mount:

http://www.awrracing.com/store/index.php?cPath=84_129

http://www.awrracing.com/store/product_ ... cts_id=320

[94mx3precidia]

wow thanks for the quick replies guys.

okay so i have a few more questions.

so i know im not gunna find a ze with kl31 cams with a curve neck im only gunna get kl01 cams and im okay with that. So youre saying that a ze will have kl31-1a1 and kl31-101 stamped on the heads? Then how can i be sure that im getting a true ze with a curve neck? Just by removing the heads and doing a compression test?

and wytbishop, your saying if i remove the cam cap i should see no scratches at all just a very smooth surface? Its just that i read somewhere that you remove the 6th cylinder cam cap and check that because that the part of the engine that is deprived of oil.

Now for the engine mounts, what are the ones from corksport like? will they hold up to the ze?
I need to change my mounts anyways, im hearing a slight clunk as i shift. Im definately gunna check out awr mounts but they seem kinda pricy.

oh ya, the ECU i will be using my k8 ecu first off, but can i get it chipped to run the ze vris points? or are the ze curve neck and de curve neck vris points the same so i could just get it chipped for a de instead? presuming that i can get it chipped that is.

all in all i dont think its going to some to that much. its 1500 for the engine swap, 250 for a stage 1 bully clutch and a cupple hundred for the mounts.

solo ryder, thats one clean engine!

[wytbishop]

I have also heard that about the cyl 6 cam bearing. If the engine is clean looking I wouldn't worry too much about it. If you have to choose between a few engines which are all a little older looking then sure pull the cap. Because it's a design flaw, not a service issue, they will likely all look the same. If the engine is fairly low kms it will be smooth, but you would see wear.

Also there is alot of conjecture on what a "real" KLZE is. The only difference between the 2 is the cams. A Millenia (curved neck) ZE has nearly the same hp rating but the peak torque occurs at a lower rpm. This was to avoid destroying the auto tranny they were installed with in Japan. For North American street use, I think I would prefer a curve neck. You can always add hp. But lowering the torque peak is a good thing if you ask me.

[94mx3precidia]

ohh im a little confused now. i thaught you meant that a klde and a klze will both have either kl31-1a1 and kl31-101 stamped on the heads.

so do de's have one specific stamping on the heads or could they also have either. What im really looking for is a way to tell between a de and a ze. becasue japan power only claim to have ze's in stock i dont want to be paying the price for a ze when ill be getting a de.

[solo_ryder]

KLDE = KL-1A1 and KL-101
KLZE = KL31-1A1 and KL31-101

Straight neck = KL31 cams
Curved neck = KL01 cams
DE = KL01 cams

That is all there is to know, check the head codes for the '31' and you are golden

[94mx3precidia]

oh i was under the impression that de's had signifigant different head codes that the ze's. Thanks for that clarification.

So the only thing thats really differnet between the two is the pistons right? the ze's are domed and de's are flat or is it the other way around?

I presume that ze's have larger compression becasue of the domed shape. am i right?

[wytbishop]

I think you're still confused.

There are several differences between a DE and a ZE. Different heads (look at the numbers in Solo's post, ZE=KL31-101 & DE=KL101...different), different pistons, different cams, for different power and torque values. In MY previous post I was talking about the difference between the 2 ZE's (straight neck and curved neck).

Curve neck does not mean DE.

A curved neck ZE (from a JDM Millenia) and any DE have the same cams (KL01) but different heads and pistons and so on.

A straight neck ZE (from a JDM MX-6) and a curved neck ZE have the same pistons (except maybe some later Millenia ZE have lower compression pistons...I think I heard that on ProbeTalk), but straight neck has the KL31 cams and curved neck has the KL01 cams (same as a DE) which accounts for the torque peak occurring at lower rpm.

I'm pretty sure that's all correct. If I'm wrong about any of that someone will surely say so. If you already had all that figured, sorry. I just wanted it to be clear.

[94mx3precidia]

ok i get it all now. thanks, that did clear some things up.

now i know what ill be looking for when i head to japan power on the wekend. id actually prefer to have kl01 cams cuz i like the low end torque.

so in actual reality im just looking for kl31 and kl stamped on the heads. that will tell me if its a ze or a de bottom end.

anyone have any imput about the engine mounts and the vris points for de's and ze's. im pretty much just looking for if that curve neck ze's and de's have the same vris points.

[Nd4SpdSe]

1. replacing the clutch. ive read alot about clutches and im going with either exeedy or bully. Now.... should i get like a stage 2 or stage 3 from a mx3? or.... does the mx6 stock clutch bolt up? ive searched and i only found topics talking about what types to use and not from what vehicle.

There are lots of applications for our cars, as far as I know exedy only makes a OEM replacement, check out ACT, clutchmasters, spec etc. Get a 93 probe gt or mx6 clutch as it is 10mm larger and usually cheaper.

A stage 2 should be fine, but do as you wish.

[/quote]


There's alot of different discussion about clutches. For what I've been read, heard and told, stay away from an OEM or
"JDM" clutch. The OEM Mazda clutch doesn't seem to hold up well to even a DE. I've heard alot of stories about people not having the money and getting them and they start to slip after serveral months. They'll last, if you don't drive it hard, but if you don't plan on driving it hard, than why are you swapping the motor? I've heard as well alot of people getting "JDM" clutches from importers with their motors, they're no better if not worse than an OEM clutch. Same goes for the eBay crap. A few people have gotten them, advertised as "Stage 3" and their junk too. My recommendation, any stage 1 from a reputable clutch manufacturer will more than suffice. I have a friend with an Exedy Stage 1 that didn't break theirs in, drives the car hard, and it still grips great apparently

3. Now i know this has been spoken so many times but i keep reading different things. If im looking for a true ze, but with a curve neck i should be looking for kl31-101 on the heads, and kl31 on the cams right?

You aren't gonna find a curve neck with kl31 cams (very small change it will have kl31), they all have kl01 cams because that was the cam designed for the millenia motor (lower rpm for max tq and hp) only the straight neck has the kl31 cams. Both have kl31-1a1 and kl31-101 heads. If you want a true ZE get a straight neck motor and swap a curve neck IM on it.

Exactly, but even if it's a straight neck, make sure to check the cams. Mooneggs got a straight neck with 01 cams. First I've heard of that, but both Mooneggs and Custommx3 confirm that.

Replace the mounts for sure with stronger ones. 1.8's are designed for 130 hp and the ZE puts out over 170. Your clutch will depend on how you want to drive it. Most of us would never need more than a stage two. Stage three if you have a lot of money (you know who you are out there).

You don't *need* better mounts. The large majority of the time people just use the stock mounts. Usually they'll get new ones since the stock are over 10 years old and worn. If people want better mounts, what's usually done is that they'll polyfill them, either do that to new mounts, or polyfill their old mounts. The next options are the AWR mounts, or the MazdaSpeed mounts, and the MazdaSpeed's aren't cheap

oh ya, the ECU i will be using my k8 ecu first off, but can i get it chipped to run the ze vris points? or are the ze curve neck and de curve neck vris points the same so i could just get it chipped for a de instead? presuming that i can get it chipped that is.

The only recommended chip is the Probinator. The VRIS points on the IM's should be the same cause the IM's i'm pretty sure are the same. At first it will run rich and milleage will suck, it would be a good idea to get either a Probinator chipped ECU or a KL31/KL36 ECU for when you do your swap.

IAlso there is alot of conjecture on what a "real" KLZE is. The only difference between the 2 is the cams. A Millenia (curved neck) ZE has nearly the same hp rating but the peak torque occurs at a lower rpm. This was to avoid destroying the auto tranny they were installed with in Japan. For North American street use, I think I would prefer a curve neck. You can always add hp. But lowering the torque peak is a good thing if you ask me.

Actually it wasn't for destroying the tranny but for a more usable powerband. Remember that the Millenia came auto only, and that's a 4 speed not a 5 speed, so it needs a broader torque curve, especially on the low end. And the Millenia isn't a sports car, it's a luxury sedan, it's lower powerband is more useful for in town driving at lower RPMs rather than racing where you need the power up high.

The problem with 01 cams, depending on what type of racing you do, that the powerband may be too low. If your drag racing, you usually sit between 5500rpms and redline, but on the 01 cams, the max torque is at 4500-4800, so you never use it. For autocross, my 01 cammed ZE works great, plenty of power to spin the tires and do most of the course in 2nd gear. There's nothing really wrong with a 01 cammed ZE, but for dyno's and the drag strip may not give you numbers to brag about. I've been told by a few friends that the 31 cams have good low end, but I've never driven one, so I can't compare.

ICurve neck does not mean DE.

A curved neck ZE (from a JDM Millenia) and any DE have the same cams (KL01) but different heads and pistons and so on.

A straight neck ZE (from a JDM MX-6) and a curved neck ZE have the same pistons (except maybe some later Millenia ZE have lower compression pistons...I think I heard that on ProbeTalk), but straight neck has the KL31 cams and curved neck has the KL01 cams (same as a DE) which accounts for the torque peak occurring at lower rpm.

You're right for the most part. One thing that would be mentioned is that the heads on a Millenia DE and a KLZE will look the same in respect that both have square runners (reason why the Millenia has 170hp rather than the 165hp the Mx-6/Probe/626 have), so you need to check the head codes. Yes, you are right, the later year Millenia's have a lower compression...not sure how to check for that tho.

[94mx3precidia]

Perfect! thats all i needed to know. thanks for your help guys. 

I went to go look at engines today, they had 2 des and 2 zes. One of the des looked awasome, pratically bran new. The pulleys didnt even have and rust on them. The valve covers wernt oxidied a bit but once you remove the oil cap it was sludge valley. the other de was in pretty good shape. It didnt have that much gunk under the valve cover id say it was close to 60,000klm.

One of the zes was in deasent shape, it was clean on the out side and deasent inside. But the other ze i fell in love with. Now she might be a liitle dirty out side, a bit of dust and some oxidisation but like they say, dont judge a book by its cover. I had the guy remove the valve cover in the front. i made sure that it was the first time it was ever opened and once he opened it it was muraculus. it looked exactly like solo_ryders picture above. there was a slight golden colour but everything was mostly clean. Absolutely no crap or gunk in there, it was a kl31-101 i think with kl01 cams so its legit.

The guy that worked there was also surprised at how clean it was. I even found out that their company  buys quite a few parts from my work so i might even be getting a discount, although he said that he would have to think about it. 

 so ill be dropping by there on monday to make a deposit on the engine so that he doesnt sell it on me. Im also going to put a marking somewhere on the engine where only i know where it is so i can be sure that i am getting the exact engine i want.

They said that they will even do a compression check and a leakdown test before the engine is installed. There a busy shop and they dont want to be spending their time installing a bad engine.

If you get an eninge installed there you get a 90 day waranty which i thaught was good. He said that if anything does go wrong you bring the car back and theyll fix it for free.

Anyways im kinda excited now, its been alsost a year now waiting for a good time to drop the ze in and i think its a good time now seeing as how i think ive got a collapsed lifter or something. my car sounds like a tank 1900 rpm and less. Hopefully its not too good to be true, ill see if i can get a picture for you guys monday.