Standalones

cjthor · Post by **cjthor** » August 3rd, 2006, 8:19 pm

JWMotorsports wrote:If you have a digital multimeter with a tone generator & the car's OEM wiring diagram its a breeze...assuming you know a good deal about electronics.

If you had problems getting your S-AFC to work....don't even attempt this as you'll cost your self a lot of money in the long run.

First you need a general understanding of basic electronics. Then a bit about how the various electronics in the car work. My recommendation is for you to purchase "Tuning ACCEL/DFI 6.0 Programmable Fuel Injection". It is published by HPBooks and written by Ray T. Bohacz. It tells you about the different sensors, how they work, and what they are used for first. Then it teaches you how to properly size your fuel injection system components. Then it gives some a bit of info on intake manifold design and then tells you step by step how to setup the EMS and then how to tune it as well. Second best EFI book I've ever read, very easy to follow. Don't just read it once or all at one time either. Read, re-read, repeat, then referance as needed. Further more you need a good understanding of how the engine's internals work, pook around on http://www.howstuffworks.com

Most full standalone systems have the option for you to buy a universal "Flying Lead Harness". That is the option I go for because it eliminates old wireing that who knows who has chopped into etc... I've had a LOT of bad install experiances due to other peoples wiring and recommend inexperianced people to stay away from them. I've got the tools and knowledge to trouble shoot and find such things but it can be VERY time consuming. Starting with a new harness also offers you the option to reroute your harness and hide it for a stealth install. The only OEM wires left in my car...for the time being...are the circuits for the lighting system, I went through and removed all the unused wires out of the OEM harnesses and completely removed & replaced the main fuse box that was located inthe engine bay. By doing so my car lost a considerable amount of weight just in OEM wiring! Another thing I did was put my EMS and fuel pump on two seperate toggles. This enables me to leave power to the EMS for tuning, tweaks, monitoring, etc... with the ign key out. It also enables me to disconnect a fuel line and pump the 93 octane or C16 gas out of the tank VERY quickly

Both the Microtech and the Haltech are very friendly EMS systems. As for having accessories...standalones have inputs & outputs for accessory signals, both digital and analog (beware of what you buy...some have MANY and some have little or even none). Digital monitors frequency (ie...speed, rpm) and analog looks at just voltage (ie...tps,afr,egt). When you turn for example the AC on there is a signal out put by the AC clucth solinoid. That signal is what needs to be feed to the accessory signal input of the EMS. The EMS has a programmable fuel & timing table or adjustment that is user configurable. When the EMS sees this signal it will look at the user input spec and compensate for the AC's load when the clutch is engaged. Same thing the OEM system does.

AEM can work in other cars. Most people say their crap because they can't tune them or don't have them grounded properly. There are different versions of the AEM EMS as well. The $1300 off the shelf unit is pretty basic...for the AEM's capabilities and are available for direct plug in on Civics, Miatas, Talons, Eclipses, etc... You can get the AEM Pro EMS...for about $2600... and it comes with built in wide band drivers, K-Type thermocoupler drivers (EGT probe drivers/direct connect). Blahhh blahhh blahhh....does Motech still exist? Yes, but the AEM gives the top of the line Motech systems a run for their money! These EMS systems are hard to program and VERY time consuming. Why? Because the AEM EMS systems have SEVERAL load maps that overlay each other, unlike most speed density EMS systems. Most people honestly don't need the AEM system. It has full closed loop control, nitrous control out the B-hole, traction control, pretty much you name it....it'll do it!

WOW! A post that your 400whp mx3 isnt mentioned!! Hahahhaa.

JWMotorsports · Post by **JWMotorsports** » August 3rd, 2006, 9:49 pm

Limegreen mx-3 · Post by **Limegreen mx-3** » August 3rd, 2006, 11:12 pm

another hater

Its not 400whp its 475whp and its not my mx-3 its Ric MX-3 smart relpying the wrong person.

Smart A$$

cjthor · Post by **cjthor** » August 4th, 2006, 1:19 am

Limegreen mx-3 wrote:another hater

Its not 400whp its 475whp and its not my mx-3 its Ric MX-3 smart relpying the wrong person.

Smart A$$

im not a hater and i wasnt talking to you. I was referring to Jeremy and that is why I quoted his text. I talk to Jeremy often and im sure he knows im screwin with him.

Cy · Post by Cy » August 4th, 2006, 1:38 am

Friend of mine is a cheap-a-- and built a 10second 2nd gen Rx-7 Turbo on a budget of $4000 CAD...

He used a Megasquirt because it's dirt cheap and offers all the feature's that the other ECM's have...

He just spliced all his wires into his old harness although i'm not sure if he kept the car's ecu...

comments?

hppwdn · Post by **hppwdn** » August 17th, 2006, 10:05 pm

Megasquirt is my standalone of choice. My stock ECU currently lives in a trash can so it would hard to call MS a piggyback. It's constantly advancing with the tuning software also. The possiblities are endless.

Even installing coil packs and eliminating my distributor was completely painless. I experimented with low impedence top feed injectors in a car that was meant for high impedence sidefeeds with no troubles. It's even been through turboing my car with no hiccups.

It really is a robust solution and a lot more people are finding out about it. It's a DIY unit so a little soldering and PCB knowledge is needed, but there are tons of people that build them for you now.

Steeb · Post by **Steeb** » August 30th, 2006, 8:27 pm

hppwdn, i plan to use the ms on my cars because of the option of retaining the stock accessories. were you able to retain your stock accessories without using the stock ecu?

what is the difference between your setup and the one that retains the stock ecu for accessories?

RbluE_MX-6 · Post by **RbluE_MX-6** » August 31st, 2006, 10:38 pm

Steeb wrote:]what is the difference between your setup and the one that retains the stock ecu for accessories?

The way he has the setup is most likely like this: factory ecu and wiring harness completly removed. MS completly controling fuel and timing, and new wiring harness created from ms to sensors, injectors and ignition.

The other way that your asking workds like this: Use the factory wiring harness for MS to get a signal from your factory sensors, fuel injection, and timing. Your factory harness stay in tact, your basically turning your factory ECU into a piggy back only to control certain accessories whilst MS controls fuel and timing. [/quote]

Steeb · Post by **Steeb** » September 1st, 2006, 9:30 pm

thanks for the explaination!

how does hooking up the ms with the stock ecu compare to running it without the ecu? are the two completely different units with different options? does using the stock ecu with the ms limit its tunability?

i know there is more than one model of ms. after reading a little bit about the ms i always thought the ms that was used with your stock ecu was as fully tunable as the one that is not used with the stock ecu. ioono if i should reread it again cuz there are several options and upgrades its hard to keep up.

TIA

ive tuned other peoples safc which is much easier to figure out even tho i dont have one but much less flexibility and tunability.

hppwdn · Post by **hppwdn** » September 7th, 2006, 3:02 am

I still have full functionality of everything including AC etc.

And you don't need to make a new wiring harness to do so. All you do is splice into the appropriate wires in your stock harness. You could say it installs like a piggy back but is really a stand alone. You don't really splice it in, you moreso cut the stock wires from the ECU and connect them to the MS for the convenience of not having to rewire your entire engine bay.

Of course by the time you add coil packs and upgraded injectors there will still be a little rewiring.

If you need some more info on MS just PM me and I'll direct you to a good source. I try not to post his info because he gets bombarded with questions enough as it is. I can probably answer a lot of your questions and get you educated enough to make a decision.

Steeb · Post by **Steeb** » September 7th, 2006, 8:09 pm

ahh thanks for the explaination, be ready to recieve some pms from me shortly

gtfourcelica · Post by **gtfourcelica** » September 23rd, 2006, 4:47 pm

FRANKO,
i need some help with my mazda 323 with bpze engine and e6x haltech, can you email your email to me?
my email is gtfourcelica@hotmail.com
waiting 4 your reply

projectmx · Post by **projectmx** » September 25th, 2006, 8:33 am

i've also been looking into a standalone recently, i'm building a bp powered AWD mx-3 and i'm going distributorless with miata CAS / coil packs / engine wire harness. i've been looking around a lot and there are some great systems, sds / megasquirt / haltech / mitrotech / etc. i've done a lot of looking into the megasquirt and have heard a lot of good stuff, there are a lot of miata guys running them and having great results I have even found a few sites that give very explicit step by step instrucutions on the installation / tuning of these on the mx-5's so as great as the others are i really think the megasquirt appears to be pretty good also, people don't give it enough credit... there are even some people working on making the MS self tuning programing work much faster

BuGS · Post by **BuGS** » September 25th, 2006, 12:40 pm

projectmx wrote:i've also been looking into a standalone recently, i'm building a bp powered AWD mx-3 and i'm going distributorless with miata CAS / coil packs / engine wire harness. i've been looking around a lot and there are some great systems, sds / megasquirt / haltech / mitrotech / etc. i've done a lot of looking into the megasquirt and have heard a lot of good stuff, there are a lot of miata guys running them and having great results I have even found a few sites that give very explicit step by step instrucutions on the installation / tuning of these on the mx-5's so as great as the others are i really think the megasquirt appears to be pretty good also, people don't give it enough credit... there are even some people working on making the MS self tuning programing work much faster

Well I agree with what Ric and Limegreen have said before because they have the same attitude as most great Tuners do, esspecially the ones I have talked to, the MS is cheap for a reason. I have noticed a lot on the RX7 club that the MS and Haltek users have both been running into a lot of problems with the units themselves. I would really try to go with either a Tec II or III if I had any amount of real money into my car (real meaning $4000 or more). Why spend that much then cheese out on the most important part of an engine, its tuning. The lowest I would go is SDS or Microtec. SDS has been proven to be very reliable and on the cheaper side. Microtec has also been proven to do that by them Aussy's. But I would really look into finding an older Tec II setup off of some older tuner car or looking into a Tec III if you want a good solid setup. I saw a Tec II on the 323 Yahoo groups the other day for $800. I emailed the guy 20mins after he posted it and it was already gone....

shaodome · Post by **shaodome** » September 25th, 2006, 2:11 pm

Well I agree with what Ric and Limegreen have said before because they have the same attitude as most great Tuners do, esspecially the ones I have talked to, the MS is cheap for a reason. I have noticed a lot on the RX7 club that the MS and Haltek users have both been running into a lot of problems with the units themselves. I would really try to go with either a Tec II or III if I had any amount of real money into my car (real meaning $4000 or more). Why spend that much then cheese out on the most important part of an engine, its tuning. The lowest I would go is SDS or Microtec. SDS has been proven to be very reliable and on the cheaper side. Microtec has also been proven to do that by them Aussy's. But I would really look into finding an older Tec II setup off of some older tuner car or looking into a Tec III if you want a good solid setup. I saw a Tec II on the 323 Yahoo groups the other day for $800. I emailed the guy 20mins after he posted it and it was already gone.... Sad

Well put by somebody who apperently has no experience and is relying on peoples opinions who also have no experience with the MS based system.

Just because you pay a lot of money for something doesn't mean its a quality product. Look at the LC1 wideband for example. It's on par (as terms of cost) with other widebands out there, but if you ever used one, you would realize it really is a POS cheaply made product...or the victim of poor RnD.

As for the MS, it doesn't have the following of Haltech or Microtech because of its DIY nature and the only people who post are those that have problems. A lot of the rotoary stuff u mention is still experimental, so that point holds no meaning. The guy who is doing a lot of the code (muthabixer) is a smart guy and has done a tremendous amoutn of code work for rotaries. They were not intrinsictly supported by MSnSExtra code in the beginning.

I have met with several tuners who have the same attitude as you...the whole too good to be true thing...that is until they see it in action. Then they change their tune to "how do I get these!" Seen it time and time again. They are afraid to jump into something they don't know...as expected.

The lowest you would go is an SDS? Have you ever experienced an SDS vs MS? That statement alone leaves me to believe you have not. For starters, that screen...2 lines of actual data in your tables...come on!

The Tec setups are nice, but getting dated...I have no experience with the TEC 3 though...

A lot of these EMS mention in the thread require custom trigger systems to be fabricated before use. For example...the Haltek requires the 60-2 wheel for a lot of their stuff and SDS with the flying magnets. Some systems can be adapted to use stock sensor inputs, some cannot.

For example...look at the LINK system. Its a nifty setup, but it doesn't support VR sensor inputs natively.

Have a problem with your MoTec? Go ahead and try to give them a phone call

Granted there are better systems out there. If I could have afforded to go MoTec I would have done so in a heart beat. That system is incredible, thumbs up to them. Their is a reason they use those on LeMans cars....

There is so much stuff in development right now for the MS it will make your head spin. As soon as they release things like the CAN enabled routerboard and gpio stuff....Haltek better hold onto their pants...because with the growing number of turn key providers for MS (removing the DIY part)...well...just wait and see

As for right now...my piddly MS does the following:

Running 480CC injectors (batch)
Wasted spark ignition (internal coil drivers)
Knock control
Launch Control
Rev limiters (duh)
idle control
EGT logging (built, just not connected atm)
VRIS control

I also built the rest of the functionalities into the setup, but I haven't connected (I do not have reason to yet) many other of the MS supported features...

Boost control, water injection, nitrous control, progressive shift lights, few other programmable outputs, etc....to name some off the top of my head.

Also...for those of u running another aftermarket EMS...is yours emissions compliant? Mine can be

If I opted to keep the cam sensor and not modify the stock crank wheel to remove it (6-1) I could use the stock ECU to continue to run things like the EGR and purge. Then as long as you tuned your AFRs correctly, you can pass your emissions check....with no codes