I REALLY need emissions help!

bushidosword · Post by **bushidosword** » October 21st, 2005, 11:14 pm

I recently had my 92 gs (atx) in for emissions and it failed the no, and the hydrocarbon on the dyno. (it is fine at curb idle)

I have a cold air intake, and custom exhaust (yes there is a converter), and the rest is basically stock.

my spark plugs are 5 months old, my wires are 3 months old, i have done an oil change with synthetic oil, my cat converter is about 6 months old, i pulled the 2 o2 sensors, and replaced one of them that was a problem. Before the test i used garaunteed to pass and followed the instuctions religiously. The car was run around a bit before the test and was left running until it went in.

After the oil change and the new o2 sensor, i re etested and passed the no, and my hc dropped slightly, but it is reading 106, and is only allowed 69...

this is quickly looking like im gonna lose the car because i just bought a house,and got engaged and the bill is adding up VERY quickly! PLEASE HElP!!!!!!!!

Around here there is only 1 place to go if u have an import that wont screw your car to peices, and unfortunately they are not a drive clean centre:(

ps:
after the change of the o2 sensor, i took her out on the highway and around 130kph the cel came on and stayed on till the car was turned off in town. It didnt come on on the way home or again since. The only thing about the car i notice is it seems a tiny bit slow to respond when i hit the gas, and when i floor it it doesnt seem like it is going like a car that is floored should go!

IM BEGGING FOR HELP! BTW i also have to replace my ball joint and 3 tires

MX Maximus · Post by **MX Maximus** » October 22nd, 2005, 1:31 am

Your catalytic converter neeeds to be replaced. I have a 1992 RS MX3 and it failed with nearly 300,000 miles. Had the same problem that you did -- failed because the converter had "pooped out". I replaced the converter and it passed with flying colors! With regards to the hydrocarbon, just use a highier octane fuel, although a new converter may solve that problem also. Trust me on this, I do know what I'm talking about. I drive nearly 100,000 miles a year and have taken the emmission test countless times. If you fail the NO, then simply replace the cat and you will be happier than a pig in slop! (LOL!!!) By the way, the first time I failed I did the same thing as you and still did not pass. The second time I also used 100 octane unleaded racing fuel and the hydrocarbons reading went to nearly zero but the NO was even highier than the first test. Why? Because it was several weeks later and the converter was in worse shape than before. It wasn't until I replaced the cat converter that I passed the e-test.

Best place to buy a converter is eBay. You can get a 2 inch universal Magna Flow cat converter for 60 bucks -- shipped! It will be a bit smaller in length than the ones sold at a Muffler shop and will last about 50,000 miles or so but you will save about 100 bucks over a muffler shop. By the way, my 1992 RS has nearly 360,000 miles on it and is still going strong! Yes, it's the original engine with no work done on it to date! (I'll keep everyone posted regarding this. We'll see if it can make 500,000.)

-- MX Maximus

bushidosword · Post by **bushidosword** » October 22nd, 2005, 8:04 am

iappriciate your reply but im thinking it is not likely the catconv becauseit is like 6months old... I will of course test it as well but i have this feelingthat it should be fine

BTW i dont seem to be burning oil, but if i am it is not in HUGE quantities...tthnks

MX Maximus · Post by **MX Maximus** » October 22nd, 2005, 1:07 pm

If you take the test a second time and the NO levels are even higher than before, then most definitely replace the cat. When I took my test the second time and failed, the NO levels were even highier but that was weeks later and thousands of miles added to the car. After failing it the first time, I essentially did the same thing that you did and still failed it the next time. It passed easily when I replaced the cat.

Also, be sure to check the PCV valve. Simply pull it out and check to make sure the plastic piece inside moves freely about by shaking it. If you don't hear it moving about freely, buy a new one (they are really inexpensive.) In addition, if the PCV valve is clogged, it can lead to oil burning issues so be sure to check it.

By the way, how many miles does your car have? How many miles were on it when you replaced the cat? Keep in mind, the after market cats do not last very long, unlike the the stock/oem cats that will last a very long time (well over 100,000 miles). If you have driven your car quite a few miles and have been burning oil, even small amounts, it very well could be that the cat on your car will need to be replaced, even after a mere 6 months! I know given the miles I drive, the cat would definitely need to be replaced in 6 months to pass but fortunately I only have to take the test every two years. I'm still sticking with my original assessment. Fail the NO = time to get a new cat, even if it's been only 6 months. Good luck!

MX Maximus

MX Maximus · Post by **MX Maximus** » October 22nd, 2005, 1:36 pm

I should also add that when I failed my test the first time, I too had replaced the cat about 4-6 months earlier with an aftermarket Catco cat converter. It had a little less than 50,000 miles on it and failed to pass! Like you, I said to myself it had to be something else, after all the cat is practically "brand new". Well, as I stated earlier, the aftermarket cats don't last very long. They are designed to pass emmissions when new and will poop out quickly with regards to passing emmissions. Once you have to replace the stock/oem converter with an aftermarket cat, make plans on replacing the aftermarket one every two years to pass emmissions.

Also, keep in mind that burning oil, even small amounts will clog the converter so even if the converter only has a few thousand miles on it and you've been burning oil it most likely will have adversely effected its effectiveness. Again, I need to know the mileage on it to make a complete assessment.

MX Maximus

bushidosword · Post by **bushidosword** » October 23rd, 2005, 12:51 am

I am passing the nox at this point (after the replaced 02 SENSOR) with no problems, its just those pesky hydrocarbons... There are 200,000km on the car and the cat has maybe 7,000km (probably less.)

Is the PCR the little "push in" valve across from the oil cap? (I think running from th intake manifold)

I got my mechanic to pull the code and he says the second 02 sensor is not switching, so im going to change that on monday....grrrrr

Seeing as replacing the first sensor cut my nox in half, and reduced my hydrocarbons by only 13 ppm, (from 119 to 106) (allowable 69) i have this awful feeling that replacing the 2nd 02 sensor will cause my nox to drop even further and my hydrocarbons to remain the same, or nominaly lower (say 89 or something) ...leaving me in need of a cat as well...

what are your thoughts on a possible timming belt problem? Egr seemed to check out ok

Thanks again

lakersfan1 · Post by **lakersfan1** » October 23rd, 2005, 9:22 am

Yep. O2 sensors make sense. At idle, the computer doesn't use the O2 sensors. They kick in somewhere between idle and wide-open-throttle, where the computer goes to a preset fuel map again.

MX Maximus · Post by **MX Maximus** » October 23rd, 2005, 8:47 pm

Is the PCV the little "push in" valve across from the oil cap?

Yes, that's it. Simply pull it out and shake it. If you can hear that little plastic piece inside rattle around freely, then its fine. If not, replace it. If it's not working properly, it will lead to oil burning issues.

Sounds like you discovered the problem -- O2 sensors. Hopefully that's all. In all the years of driving I've never had one of those go bad on me.

If your cat has less than 7,000 km on it it should be fine. Mine was on for less than 6 months but had around 40,000 miles through it -- big difference.

My only concern regarding the cat at this point is the possibility of burning oil. That's why I suggested checking the PCV valve. Also, with 200,000 km on the car you might begin to notice smoke out of your exhuast. My 1993 MX3 GS began to smoke a little around the same mileage. If it is burning oil, even a small amount, that could cause some problems for your cat.

MX Maximus

[/quote]

bushidosword · Post by **bushidosword** » October 23rd, 2005, 11:55 pm

i will check the pcv valve in the morning, and hopefully a new 02 sensor and that will be that...

I dont notice any smoking, but there is a black residue in the end of the tailpipe... anyways, likely the unburned or only partly burned fuel...

Should i run the nest test with ethanol gas?

thanks again!

ps : is there a test for the pcv valve wich involves blowing through it?

bushidosword · Post by **bushidosword** » October 24th, 2005, 8:34 pm

Well replaced the 2nd o2 sensor and made sure the timing was bang on, took it in again, and she still failed

The hydrocarbons are now down to 79 of an allowable 68ppm

WTF CAN I DO????????

The pcv valve is fine, i had the maf checked , i checked all hoses for leaks...

I can SMELL unburt fuel running the tests, what is the part of the equation that I am missing here?

I cant afford to put out the $$$ for another cat, but again i say i can smell unburnt fuel so i think the problem is before the converter
H_E_L_P!!!

den · Post by **den** » October 24th, 2005, 9:05 pm

Ok im no expert but based on my experience maybe I could give you some ideas. My car is 1992 gs

Here was the result of my e-test:
_____________________________
ASM 2525 --------------- Curb idle
_____________________________
HC - 129 - fail ----------- 198 - pass
CO - .52 - fail ------------ 0.94 - pass
NO - 1291 - fail ---------- n/a

(vey bad results aren't they)

So I brought it to a accredited "ontario drive clean" shop for a diagnostic test. They said I have to replace the EGR valve($140 from mazda) and cat converter.

Now here's the result after fixing my car:
_________________________________
ASM 2525 -------------------- Curb idle
_________________________________
HC - 9 - pass ---------------- 13 - pass
CO - 0.05 - pass ------------ 0.32 - pass
NO - 73 - pass --------------- n/a
(see the difference?)

It's up to you now. By the way the diagnostic test was $85 but I didn't shop around coz I was in a hurry. Maybe there are some other accredited shops that charge cheaper than $85. Good luck!

bushidosword · Post by **bushidosword** » October 24th, 2005, 9:18 pm

geese sorta makes me suspect the egr now...

What are some other symptoms that i might experience as a result of a faulty egr valve?

Im going to run that buy the guys at the shop and see what they come up with.

BTW THanks alot for your replies, if anyone has any other ideas lemme know

lakersfan1 · Post by **lakersfan1** » October 25th, 2005, 9:19 pm

Did you run the car hard for a half hour first? A cold engine and a cold catalytic converter are more likely to fail.

If it was already hot, you can try the trick putting a couple gallons of a cleaner burning fuel like propane or ethanol in the tank to get over the hump. You look REALLY close to passing.

MX Maximus · Post by **MX Maximus** » October 26th, 2005, 3:51 am

Sorry to hear you are still not passing. I used (CAM 2) 100 octane unleaded racing fuel plus rubbing alcohol and my hydrocarbons were nearly zero! Mind you, I still had to replace the cat converter in order to pass the NO. Rubbing alcohol will make you burn cleaner. Fill your gas tank with at least a 94 octane fuel from Sunoco and then add one bottle of rubbing alcohol purchased from any drug store. Don't worry, 1 bottle is not going to hurt your fuel system provided you mix it with a full tank of gas. Come to think of it, I used about 20 ounces.

Make sure you drive it for at least 1/2 hour so that your converter is warmed up. The hotter the converter, the better it will work. Hopefully that will do the trick.

I don't know about the EGR test but let's be clear: The CAT Converter is the most important emmissions equipment on your car. My 1992 RS doesn't have an EGR and it passed once I replaced the worn converter. It sounds to me that my first assessment about replacing it was correct -- you've done everything else and it's still not passing. I know you only have less than 7,000 km though it but I have a sneaky suspicion that your converter isn't doing it's job. A damn shame, really.

Also sounds like you are not burning oil. Believe me, you would know it by simply looking at the back bumper of your car. When my PCV valve failed, my RS was not smoking but did leave an oily residue on the back of the car and license plate after a few weeks.

PS: If you use racing fuel, make sure it's the UNLEADED type -- CAM 2 has both leaded and unleaded racing fuels on the market. Do a search on the internet to locate a station that sells it near you. GOOD LUCK!

MX Maximus

lakersfan1 · Post by **lakersfan1** » October 26th, 2005, 11:01 am

MX Maximus wrote: Rubbing alcohol will make you burn cleaner.

Just make sure you use the pure stuff, not the watered down stuff with 30%-50% WATER.