Turbo positioning...

J0HN_R1 · Post by **J0HN_R1** » May 17th, 2005, 9:48 am

Asked this in another thread, but no response... So I'll make its own thread and ask again...

question for you turbo guys... can you mount a turbo vertically...? like with the intake side facing up, so theoretically (using the most common MX-3/P-GT/MX-6 method of mounting the turbo by the distrib/airbox) if you put just a filter on it, it would stick strait up through the hood...? Follow me? There's plenty of room on that front corner, especially with a battery/coolant-res relocation, to stuff a turbo in there

Just curious, might make routing exhaust easier...?

Reference pics... There's alot of space once those things are moved (easily)... I was thinkin of routing the outlet-side piping of the turbo down along that yellow strip between the head & rad, to one side of a FMIC... See where I'm goin with this yet...? The return side would come up right behind the drivers headlite and follow the blue-line to the VAF & TB... Exhaust would be routed strait down (obviously turning back to exit the system) in front of the tranny, while coming in from a custom design using the stock/aftermarket fr. mani joining the rear @ the rear and run it over and up the backside of the tranny... leaving only the filter side of the turbo, to which a custom 'RAM-AIR' hood/airbox setup could be utilized (see pic, notice the molded eyebrows!)... Or do turbos work better with the tube attached, creating the tunnel effect...? And what about the oil line, is it bad to run them vertically...?

2nd one's abit rough, I know...

.

Thanx, John

babyblueMX3 · Post by **babyblueMX3** » May 17th, 2005, 10:05 am

your intake piping route is exactly how I did mine.
not sure though about mounting it vertical..My guess is you would have problem with lubrification. When gravity will come into play, I don't think the shaft will get properly lubrified. Normally it comes from the top and straight down. your oil drain will be forced to come out and not by gravity.. never saw that before maybe there's a reason for it..It was a great idea though...I don't think there's enough space on the rear side of the tranny to make your DP go through there.

J0HN_R1 · Post by **J0HN_R1** » May 17th, 2005, 10:18 am

babyblueMX3 wrote:your intake piping route is exactly how I did mine.
not sure though about mounting it vertical..My guess is you would have problem with lubrification. When gravity will come into play, I don't think the shaft will get properly lubrified. Normally it comes from the top and straight down. your oil drain will be forced to come out and not by gravity.. never saw that before maybe there's a reason for it..It was a great idea though...I don't think there's enough space on the rear side of the tranny to make your DP go through there.

Oh well... Im just playin with the idea... I had a feeling the oil lines were gonna be the problem, not the exhaust. I think my routes would've been do-able...

The D/P is the one that exits ehaust from the turbo, not bringing it in, right? If so, I said the D/P would run strait down off the turbo then bend around the front side of the tranny and exiting to the rear into the exhaust system... The black 'piece' in my digram shows the 'up-pipe' I guess, coming from the headers... The down pipe would run right down in front of the tranny, in that gap you can see in the unmolested pic of my engine-bay (right between the air-filter & rad-cap)...

If the D/P is the one that does bring the ehaust into the turbo (before it uses it to spool), than I said it would come from the rear side of the tranny (up & over). From looking at (and the pic of) my engine bay (middle 2), it would seem logical to route it from the rear manifold over the tranny to the turbo...?

Like I said, just an idea to play with... Thanx

babyblueMX3 · Post by **babyblueMX3** » May 17th, 2005, 10:44 am

you got it right the first time..
primaries (part to bolts to the engine)
collectors (after primaries)
up pipe (from collectors to turbo)
downpipe (turbo to cat)

I read wrong the first time..You're saying the up pipe will fit between the firewall and tranny ? I tought the axle bracket was in the way and all the fuel stuff. Maybe you're right though..

BuGS · Post by **BuGS** » May 17th, 2005, 12:33 pm

you might also have a problem with major headsoat on the compressor side and w/ lub it will go bad faster. I would email Garret and ask them.

What · Post by **What** » May 17th, 2005, 8:02 pm

mount turbos as they should be, horizontal.

J0HN_R1 · Post by **J0HN_R1** » May 17th, 2005, 9:35 pm

babyblueMX3 wrote:... I tought the axle bracket was in the way and all the fuel stuff. Maybe you're right though...

I havent had an extended amount of time under the car (while on a hoist) to really look, so you're probably right.

What wrote:mount turbos as they should be, horizontal.

Thats basically the whole point behind this thread. To ask whether or not you have to mount a turbo horizontally...?

BuGS wrote:... major headsoat on the compressor side and w/ lub it will go bad faster...

And wth is this...??? I know what 'heatsoak' is, but...???

kthanxbye... John

BuGS · Post by **BuGS** » May 17th, 2005, 9:56 pm

i meant w/o lub due to gravity the shaft would go bad faster. I was in a hurry this morning. I was pretty sure there was something about how one of the reasons that turbo's blow is due to the cooling failing and the heat traveling to the compressor side which isn't meant for as much heat. But I could be completly wrong. Until I try it I don't know 100%

goldsberry1 · Post by **goldsberry1** » May 17th, 2005, 10:55 pm

i'm sorry, but turbo's lubrication is gravity drained. with the turbo vertical like that the compressor bearing would'nt recieve enough oil. which would wear it out very very fast as well as create alot more heat. it would probably take out the turbine shaft as well. you could mount it kinda like i did mine. check out mine i know its a mess under the hood. http://www.cardomain.com/memberpage/762431

babyblueMX3 · Post by **babyblueMX3** » May 17th, 2005, 10:59 pm

goldsberry1 wrote:i'm sorry, but turbo's lubrication is gravity drained. with the turbo vertical like that the compressor bearing would'nt recieve enough oil. which would wear it out very very fast as well as create alot more heat. it would probably take out the turbine shaft as well. you could mount it kinda like i did mine. check out mine i know its a mess under the hood. http://www.cardomain.com/memberpage/762431

holy $hit man what freaking turbo are you running..it looks massive

goldsberry1 · Post by **goldsberry1** » May 18th, 2005, 12:35 am

its just a t3/t4e. the t3 is a .63 trim from a buick grand national. the cold side is a t4e .60 trim. its not really that big. i just wish i still had all of it in my car. it needs rebuilt so i'm just running the hot side with the big hole (where the rest of the turbo would be) blocked off. i did this so i could still drive my car and break the engine & clutch in. babyblue, you engine and pipes look great, i cant wait until you get it all broke in so we can see your #s.

oh and the fuel lines and axle are in the way, i had planned to run my pipes a simular way until i actually started trying to make them.

JWMotorsports · Post by **JWMotorsports** » May 19th, 2005, 3:43 pm

Running the exhaust behind the motor and tranny on the V6 would require a LOT of thermal control. It's almost to tight to run it that way on my B6T setup but we are fabricating a lot of heatshields along with ceramic coating the exhaust. Check out the link in my sig. for pics of my car on cardomain. We are looking to make around 300WHP at 13psi and over 500WHP at 30psi turbo only. Then after we figure out our fix to hold trannies together I'll start spraying the piss out of it at full boost working to 600+WHP.

What · Post by **What** » May 20th, 2005, 2:05 pm

J0HN_R1 wrote:

What wrote:mount turbos as they should be, horizontal.
Thats basically the whole point behind this thread. To ask whether or not you have to mount a turbo horizontally...?

And I gave the simplified answer. A shaft spinning at 60,000-100,000rpms (give or take) resting on floating bearings designed to work along with gravity oil return on a horizontal plane like most generic turbos, won't work for very long outside that design... It would be easier to show with a cross-sectional view of a turbocharger. I imagine the turbine sealing ring (or whichever way you have it mounted) would quickly let the build up of oil past and you'd have a big smokey mess. Also, the common bronze type bearings are not meant to have an excess of oil, and if there were two bearings on the shaft, one would likely be bathing in oil before the oil started to make it's oil out the drain sideways.

This is not to say that you couldn't write up turbonetics and ask them what kind of turbo technology they have that would better suit an inclined or perhaps vertical technology for your car. Nothing wrong with your idea, they have turbocharged planes which must have turbos better built to suit a variety of inclines. Most junkyard turbos - or simply cost effective turbos - probably wouldn't provide what you are looking for.

J0HN_R1 · Post by **J0HN_R1** » May 21st, 2005, 11:10 am

I understand the basic theories & principles behind rotating-mass, centrifugal-force, thermal dynamics, gravity, etc... The one thing I didn't know was the design of the oil feed/return system in relation to its gravitational limitations... I thought there was pressure in the system, and that the bearings were 'load-bearings' (like the tranny bearing that comes with clutch-kits) that wouldn't be effected by horz/vert positioning... I know turbos spin up pretty high rpm's, but, just thought it might work... And from the sounds of it, probably not do-able anyway...

What · Post by **What** » May 21st, 2005, 1:12 pm

Me too. But alas if you don't know what's in a turbo, and understand the purpose of each piece... school won't help you. The free floating bearings are required to rotate along with the shaft (say 1/4-1/3 the speed). Harder for your bearings to do drenched in an oil bath. Also, there is a grooved collar at the end of each housing with piston rings meant to prevent the dirty exhaust or wonderful compressed air from entering the center section. Any oil on these rings will quickly be let past as they are not designed for it. It's easier to show with a proper cross sectional view or if you've at least disected a few turbos. Most turbos require a .040"-.060" restrictor to reduce volume of oil to center section. The bearings do not require a lot of oil, there is no pressure, and you do not want oil to touch the piston rings... even a slight film... trust me. Your probably not will be a quick definetely not if you hook up the average automotive turbo like that.