MX 3 RS W/80 whp vs RSX & STI

[bmwm3guy]

[Yoda]

I would say that hanging with a RSX-S is not as BS as it may seem. I drive a B6(8V)SOHC with only basic although non traditional bolt on mods.(not looking for show-off brownie points) Off the line to about 100Kmh it is every bit as fast as my other car with the KL-ZE. with a set of sticky tire 0-60ft 0-100ft time are signicantly faster. You guys are all looking ate HP but you also hsve to consider the suspension too. Every new honda product I've driven that was made in the last 4 or 5 years has be come to soft and cushy off the show room floor. As a result much energy is wasted loading up the suspension before the car moves forward under hard accelleration. Ever on the MX-3 I know of guys that went from mid 14's to low 14's/high 13's with stock a -ZE by only installing 900lb/in non progressive spring in on their cars. The other thing is most driver think that have to shift at redline to get the fastest acceleration. In actually fact you will be faster if you shift just short of your peak power RPM. On my car shifting as close to 4900rpm I pretty mush hang with a GS and only about 1 car lengths behind a B16 powered Civic or only about 1.5 car lengths behind a -ZE MX-3 in a 1/4mile. It is only after this that they start to pull away.

Originally posted by rukick:
The RSX is a type S. My neighbor is a Mazda mechanic and he says I would have had no chance with my 1.6 if the RSX was launched right. He also says that it does not take much to beat someone off the line no matter what cars you are racing if one guy spins his wheels too long or doesn't give it enough gas. He thinks that in both cases I probubly just launched better. So I guess I'll have to tell my brother that I am just a better driver. That will be fun!

[bmwm3guy]

Honestly dude, no

True suspension does make a differnce and the first 60 feet will be pretty even, thats normal for most 100-200 hp cars. The RSX-S usually gets 2.3-2.4 60 foot times. The MX3 DOHC and SOHC both have roughly the same. But the thing is the RSX-S counts on VTEC which only kicks in at higher RPMs and this is where the RSX-S makes its power. After 60 feet, its over. RSX-S's do 14.7-9s in the quarter... Sorry but i call BS on an RS beating an RSX-S unless the guy driving the RSX was shifting like my grandmother. And you said your RS (SOHC on top of that) is as fast as a ZE...

wait...


wait for it...


BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

ok ok.. next point.. About the whole "Dont have to shift at redline" bit. On an mx3 peak Hp is at roughly 6000 RPM IIRC so you optimally want to be around 6000RPM at all times while racing. So in first gear I shift at around 6500 RPM so that when I get into the next gear, Im somewhere around 5500RPM. In first gear, a lot of MX'ers shift at the cutoff. I dont care how much you say that you accelerate faster while shifting at 4600RPM, but at that RPM you are not applying the maximum amount of force to the wheels, plus when you shift the RPMs must drop to below 4000.

Lets use babybluemx3 as an example. His ZE is in good running order, and he did 14.565 @ 94 in the quarter.
<img src="http://memimage.cardomain.net/member_im ... 08_144.jpg" alt=" - " />
Now you claimed that you are only 1-2 cars behind a ZE?? umm lets get out the trusty calculator...

Lets say on your best day you do 16 flat because of you bolt-on mods. So thats a 1.5 second difference between you and Mister ZE. 1.5 seconds at roughly 90 miles per hour is about 55-60 metres which is about 175 feet. All ballpark of course, so unless you're lying... or you have some special 4 banger SOHC that we'd all love to get our hands on, I call BS on you too.

[rukick]

I didn't come on here to brag about the great kills I got with my mighty 1.6 SOHC running 80whp. I posted this to get some opinions on why my car did so well against them off the line. Why would I make that up? I promise there is no BS going on here. If you don’t believe me then I suggest you grab an RSX and a Mx3 RS and try it yourself. I can't explain why it happened (that is why I posted the question) but don't tell me it didn't happen.

<small>[ November 11, 2004, 04:04 PM: Message edited by: rukick ]</small>

[rukick]

I have done some additional research and here is what I found out. Getting off the line has little to do with HP and has everything to do with TORQUE - how much you have and how well the car and driver can take advantage of what's there. I had my car on the dyno a few weeks ago and I got over 90. I looked at 2 different dyno sheets online for the stock RSX TYPE-S. It has 120. That is not much of a difference to make up. If the MX3 takes better advantage of the torque through suspension, gear ratio, high performance tires, etc and I got a little better launch then that means I beat him off the line just like I said I did.

<small>[ November 11, 2004, 08:34 PM: Message edited by: rukick ]</small>

[Casino]

ok first off i race on the track every weekend.

my bone stock rs DOHC ran a 19. second pase lol
did alot better with minor mods and teh bottle.

and rsx-s would own you off the line, no if ands or buts about it. 80hp = almost no acleration.
as for the STI LOL he wouldnt even have to know how to drive to get a good launch, you could rev it up and dump, but you would spin for like a second and hook ( especially on a well preped track vht works wonders lol ). or you could slip out the clutch and get a great launch, bone stock STI's run low 13's daily.
i find it hard to beleive any of this until i see some 60 foots or a good time slip

<small>[ November 12, 2004, 12:56 AM: Message edited by: Casino ]</small>

[rukick]

Casino - "I find it hard to believe"

I could care less what you find hard. I am glad you feel like I would have no chance but the truth is that 120 TORQUE will not always own a 90 TORQUE off the line. I also found out that the type S doesn't have any more Torque than the regular RSX. And as for the STI we already addressed that. My friend was babying his new car (that he had only been driving for a few weeks.) I am done defending my story. If you don't believe me - fine. If you have any further insights as to why the MX3 has such a great start then please offer them.

<small>[ November 12, 2004, 10:03 AM: Message edited by: rukick ]</small>

[mx3man83]

Originally posted by Yoda:
Off the line to about 100Kmh it is every bit as fast as my other car with the KL-ZE.

Your klze must be sloooow then. I've driven both vehicles, klze mx3 and b6 mx3. The klze is a whole different world from 1 RPM up to 7500 RPM.

<small>[ November 13, 2004, 12:30 AM: Message edited by: mx3man83 ]</small>

[Casino]

but the truth is that 120 TORQUE will not always own a 90 TORQUE off the line

he has more hp and more torque unless he bogged and didnt know how to launch or anything he would have had a better go

The thing that actually accelerates you was first put into mathematical form by Isaac Newton as:
Acceleration = Force/Mass

If we assume mass is equal in this case, the more force the faster you accelerate. Obvious, of course.

The force we're talking about is the force at the drive wheels, which are rotating around the drive axle. So it's force at a distance from the axle, meaning we're really talking about torque at the wheels. So, torque is what we need, right? Sort of.

Remember that we're talking about torque at the drive wheels. Upstream from the wheels are gears, which multiply torque. The higher you can gear the car the more torque you get at the wheels, which leads to more acceleration. What allows you to gear the car higher? Higher RPMs. Double the engine speed with the same torque and you can double the gear ratio, leading to double the torque at the wheels! In other words, 100 lbs. feet of torque at 2000 RPM results in half as much torque at the wheels as 100 lbs. feet of torque at 4000 RPM, as long as you change the gearing. (Simplified to comparing acceleration at one speed, but it applies to all speeds)

If that makes sense it should make sense that:

Horsepower = Torque*RPM/5252

(Well, you don't see why the 5252 is there, but don't worry too much about that. It's just a units thing).

More horsepower leads to more torque at the drive wheels, which leads to more force pushing you forward, which leads to faster acceleration.

he would beat you

<small>[ November 18, 2004, 02:26 AM: Message edited by: Casino ]</small>

[Yoda]

Yeah I would agree with you it is a little slow on the bottom end since mixing a matching -ze intake cams with -41 exhaust cams and installing offset cam dowel to advance/retard the cams. 1/4mile is a little disappointing to. Only 14.05/ 95mph I was hoping to atleast match Sean Matthews 14.01/89.6mph (N/A) runs back about 5 years.

Originally posted by mx3man83:

Originally posted by Yoda:
Off the line to about 100Kmh it is every bit as fast as my other car with the KL-ZE.

Your klze must be sloooow then. I've driven both vehicles, klze mx3 and b6 mx3. The klze is a whole different world from 1 RPM up to 7500 RPM.

[bmwm3guy]

Originally posted by Yoda:
Yeah I would agree with you it is a little slow on the bottom end since mixing a matching -ze intake cams with -41 exhaust cams and installing offset cam dowel to advance/retard the cams. 1/4mile is a little disappointing to. Only 14.05/ 95mph I was hoping to atleast match Sean Matthews 14.01/89.6mph (N/A) runs back about 5 years.

You could get into the 13s I bet with a better reaction time... You were only .05 seconds off.

[What]

Did you get any times from this event? I think ****ty stock tires on the RSX and perhaps a slippery track to make it worse. That or I can see the RSX driver being too abrupt off the line... the WRX, well he just needs to learn how to launch. Even a little slip on the clutch instead of a simple clutch drop can be more effective.

with AWD his 60fts should be 2.0s or less. Your and the RSX are probably similar 2.3-2.5seconds. Getting off the line is a great handicap of FWD. My Swift (190whp) that was 8mph faster trap speeds in the 1/4mile was only .1 second faster than my AWD talon in the 1/4mile. From 86whp bone stock, to 190whp at the track, my 60ft. times never dropped. Why wouldn't a 220hp car beat a 100hp FWD car of the same weight (in case of stock vs. turbo)... traction and suspension. A stock FWD is generally not going to be meant to pound out 2.0s 60fts. from the factory. I don't think any manufacturer wants to deal with broken driveshafts or the wear that would come from these kind of hard launches so expect most FWDs to be set up to spin tires from the factory.

my wife drives an 04 Civic SIR which is pretty much the same as a base RSX. Same brakes, same 160hp motor, yadada. This is a motor that only revs to 7000rpms before fuel cut off. It has way more torque than the Hondas of old. It squeals the tires off line less than half throttle. It makes it up mountain hills in 5th gear. I've chirped going into 3rd gear on the street. Is this all because it has supreme power?? No, the stock tires are junk, and the suspension isn't set up for drag launches. Is it too soft as someone else said?? No, it actually makes my MX3 feel like a boat in comparison. Honda did something right on this car and it is fun to drive. Is it gearing? No... the gearing is shorter than my SOHC MX3, so it's not that either...

blame it on trying to motivate any FWD car with a little power and stock suspension that isn't set up for the track. However, there is no way my MX3 SOHC gets anywhere near 0-60mph time of 7 seconds... and the ability of the RSX base or S should show well before 60mph.

All that said, I'll bring the wifes car out to the next Calgary meet (if there is a nice clear road to get up to even60mph near by), or at the track when it opens again, if somebody really wants to battle it out. I expect it to be kind of close to do crappy FWD racing in first and then to quickly walk away in 2nd and third.

[FIMotorMX-3]

My friend's wrx has enough mods that he was dynoed at 245awhp. he poops on my k8. if i see him pulling up next to me i would be better off just pulling over. there is no way that an mx is beating an sti off the line unless it's turboed or a ze.. even then, awd just has too much traction. you are staring at taillights in no time. i'm praying for my k8 to die tomorrow so i can justify putting off paying some bills so i can finally purchase a ze of my own.

[Casino]

The sti makes it to 60mph faster then a few ferrari's no matter how badass your mx-3 is i doubt it can beat that