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Nd4SpdSe wrote:

Inodoro Pereyra wrote: K8-DE 135bhp@1845cc=0.073170732 bhp/cc
Kl-DE 165bhp@2497cc=0.066079295 bhp/cc

So I would say that, like I said before, there's a CLEAR hp/cc advantage for the K8. Don't you think?

Not at all, cause our K8 is 130hp, not 135, that's the K8ZE, which brings it down to 0.070460704 bhp/cc, which is only a 6.2% improvement.

Which is exactly what I said. I never said there was a huge difference in power, I just said the K8 is more powerful than the DE, and it is. The 135bhp I used was, as I also said, based on the numbers YOU provided, although I see that now you have corrected them. I should have quoted you, to avoid any misunderstandings. My mistake.

Nd4SpdSe wrote: As for torque:

K8-DE 115btq@1845cc=0.0623306233 btq/cc
Kl-DE 165btq@2497cc=0.066079295 btq/cc

What the KLDE may lost in horsepower by 6.2 gains in torque by 5.7% over the K8. You could almsot say they traded one for the other...but we're also looking at the motors at their lowest output, not at their best. If you wanted to make the K8 look better, you could always bring out the 160hp California-emissions KLDE into the mix.

Besides, the efficiency of a motor in it's stock form doesn't at all mean how much potential it had. Regardless, those numbers won't help anyone win races.

No sir. First of all, I never mentioned torque. I just talked about horsepower.
Second, if you look at the curves, you'll see the torque curve for the K8 is much flatter than the KL one, and the K8 peaks at lower rpm than the KL.

I don't have to use the California spec KL. If I use the 174 bhp Millenia DE, the K8 is still the winner:

174bhp@2497cc=0.06968362 bhp/cc

And yes, being that they're both basically the same engine, designed under the same specifications, and made for the same market, comparing them in stock form is a very accurate way to get a baseline for both. The potential for both is defined by the strength of their components, and, being that they share the same design, it's not a real stretch, being that we lack real hard data on both, to speculate that it will probably be very similar.

It's funny, you can compare the weakest K8 to the most powerful KLDE and it wins, but the most powerful K8 can't beat the most powerful KL, it shows that it's peak limit was starting to be reached. Obviously Mazda decided to use their 165-170hp DE as their mainsteam motor instead of their ZE's than this conversation wouldn't exist., why, only Mazda knows, same as why Mazda never decided to put in a KF or DE/ZE in the Mx-3. They used a lower tune KL for a reason and for that we'll never know. Same as how Mazda never (bothered?) to get more than 198hp out of a ZE.

If you want to look at maximum theoritical potential of a K8, lets look at it percentage wise KL vs K8 since the K8 isn't just an underbored KL and they run off the same technology, additional stresses should be somewhat comparable in terms of a percentage comparing one to another...

On the average high side of a KL, people make about 250whp n/a (not including the insane PRD Probe). If you want to factor in a 15% drivetrain loss from a manual gearbox (cause that's the number we used to use in the olden days around here), you could say it was making 287hp at the crank. You young guys like you say 30% loss would put it as making a rediculous 325bhp n/a. This is a range of 45% to 64% above stock.

Take those percentages into a K8 (and I'll use the 144hp k8 here to be nice), which put it at a range of 208bhp to 236bhp. So you'll get from barely over a ZE to significantly over a ZE in produced power and you know how much it'll cost to build this "1.8L ZE Killer", about $10'000 in parts and machine work, if not more thanks to the fact that there are no readilly available internal components for the K8, so to get any made, you'll be paying a premium for a 1-off set, and you better hope you don't break any in the process. Plus the engine management system to handle it all, and allt he dyno time, which isn't cheap either...it will add up HUGE

So what we're all trying to say that if you want to spend $10k on a motor to do a marginally better than a $1k than go nuts and blow away your money at your learning expense, cause there's better ways of doing it.,

Inodoro Pereyra wrote: I think we are being quite respectful, and I think this is an adult discussion, not us "arguing like little kids".

Night shade: you should stay away from the cheap stuff. It's making you see things...

But, seriously, what are you basing your statements on? Ryan and I talk from experience and specific knowledge on the matter. What's your reasoning behind your statement that there's no comparison between the K8 and the BP?
They're both 1.8L, 4 stroke, N/A engines. Other than the obvious mechanical differences, thermodynamically they're almost the same.
The only reason why you can't find a 400bhp boosted K8 is because people are in love with the KL. On the other hand, IIRC, the 400bhp BP I heard about in this forum was anything but reliable.
Meanwhile, if KLs have been boosted to over 1000bhp (for what I read on PT), I can bet my lunch the K8 can get pretty much the same figure, while the BP would probably end up landing on the Moon much earlier than that.
?

First of all, I only have premium sh*t. Second, you are not talking from experience, you're talking out of your a** and supposed theory. WE on the other hand are talking from experience. We've all done swaps, have owned a few MX-3s, and put in more wrench time than we can count. You'll find practicality is far different from theory. It's like that time you didn't know how to take the crank pulley off - what you're saying is one thing but once you actually get there it's completely another. That's why there's no 400whp K8 - not because people are in love with the KL but because it's impossible (practically) and will never ever happen in the existence of these engines. You of all people should know there's more to engines than their displacements and number of strokes. Stop living a dream and stop telling people it's a good idea to build a K8.

Nd4: I honestly don't know what you're talking about. $10K on parts and machine work? The K engines are known for being able to handle over 400 bhp on stock internals. What parts are you talking about?
Also, for what I read HERE, IN THIS FORUM, K8 and KL camshafts are compatible, so any camshaft that's "readily available" for the KL can be also used on a K8. Other than that, pistons, rods and crankshaft can remain stock at those power numbers.

Besides that, I don't understand your point about the KL winning over the K8. That's not what we're talking about.
Sure, if you're gonna compare the KL and K8, in the same cars, the KL will win. It's 35% bigger. Following the same line of thought, if you put an LS1 in there, it will beat the crap out of the KL, even when it's an enormously inferior engine. The fact is that, power to displacement, the K8 is more powerful then the DE, period.

Night shade: first of all, if you can't keep a discussion civil, I suggest you move on, or I will.
If you have premium sh!t, good for you. Premium sh!t is still sh!t.
I was working on engines (not "swapping", not "bolting stuff on": MODIFYING ENGINES FOR RACING), since WAY BEFORE YOU WERE BORN. You don't even know what "wrench time" is.
And I have owned a few MX-3s too, and a few other cars. and I have worked in countless other cars, before and after owning those cars.
So, because I didn't figure how to use the starter to get the crankshaft bolt off you figure I don't know what I'm talking about? Sorry, I have always used impact wrenches to do that job.
The fact that you say it's impossible to get 400bhp off a K8 only shows your complete ignorance on the matter. You don't have the slightest clue what you're talking about, period. I would suggest you LEARN a little mechanics, before getting into topics that are obviously way over your head.

Sorry but you're just an old parts man who talks like he knows it all but bought a POS MX-6 and didn't know how to fix. Trying to have a senseful discussion with you is futile. I just hope the more novice members aren't misled by your misinformed rants.

_-Night-Shade-_ wrote:Sorry but you're just an old parts man who talks like he knows it all but bought a POS MX-6 and didn't know how to fix. Trying to have a senseful discussion with you is futile. I just hope the more novice members aren't misled by your misinformed rants.

Wow...that's all you have to say?

And, FYI, this old parts man bought the MX-6 for $300, FIXED IT, and sold it for $1400. And the guy who bought it (a veteran MX-6er who travelled 1000 miles to do so) is raving about it.
That said, I don't think words can describe how little I care about your opinion of me. The fact remains that I came to this thread, like I go to every thread, to answer the OP's questions, while you only came to create drama, and to insult others. You really need to grow up.
Meanwhile, welcome to my ignore list.

I could have said much more but saying anything to you is a waste of energy. Well FYI I'm sure you've already been on a lot of people's ignore lists for a while

Inodoro Pereyra wrote:Nd4: I honestly don't know what you're talking about. $10K on parts and machine work? The K engines are known for being able to handle over 400 bhp on stock internals. What parts are you talking about?
Also, for what I read HERE, IN THIS FORUM, K8 and KL camshafts are compatible, so any camshaft that's "readily available" for the KL can be also used on a K8. Other than that, pistons, rods and crankshaft can remain stock at those power numbers.

Stock crank yes, the rest of the internals, HELLS NO!

I'm talking about naturally aspirated, we're not talking about bolting a turbo to a K8 here, we're arguing the idea of spending any work in upgrading the K8 motor itself, which is largely for the most part a waste of time and money. I'm saying that if you want to built a K8 to have the same or more power as a KLZE, it will cost you $10'000 or MORE. Trust me, I was in the midst of getting the parts to build a 220-230whp N/A KLZE and that's with readilly available parts and my motor was going to cost over C$10'000 in parts and all the machining and balancing required...

Last I've heard and that I've always heard is that the K8 and KL cams are NOT compatible.

Also building up a motor to make more power makes it more stressed so it won't last nearlty as long. It will also be less reliable and less streetable and in the end, even probably have a hard timing passing emission tests if you have those in your area. So say you decide to spend the money on a K8 to get it to the power of a KLDE. In the end, you've wasted money, to make the same horsepower, but less torque than a KLDE, but also made the car less reliable and less streetable for what point? Really?

Inodoro Pereyra wrote:Besides that, I don't understand your point about the KL winning over the K8. That's not what we're talking about.
Sure, if you're gonna compare the KL and K8, in the same cars, the KL will win. It's 35% bigger. Following the same line of thought, if you put an LS1 in there, it will beat the crap out of the KL, even when it's an enormously inferior engine.

I have no idea where you got all this from, but no, that's not at all what I was talking about.

Inodoro Pereyra wrote:The fact is that, power to displacement, the K8 is more powerful then the DE, period.

Your logic for your facts are skewed. Is a K8 more powerful per displacement than a KLDE? Yes. Is a K8 more powerful per displacement than the KL (KLZE); No. In the end, what does the K8 having more HP per CC over a KLDE do? Absolutely nothing. Does the K8 have more potential than the KL? No. Is the K8 worth putting money into? No.

Nd4SpdSe wrote:
Stock crank yes, the rest of the internals, HELLS NO!

Again, based on what? Everybody concurs that, in stock form, the only weak link in K engines are the rod bolts. What's your basis to state that only the crank can be used?

Nd4SpdSe wrote:I'm talking about naturally aspirated, we're not talking about bolting a turbo to a K8 here, we're arguing the idea of spending any work in upgrading the K8 motor itself, which is largely for the most part a waste of time and money. I'm saying that if you want to built a K8 to have the same or more power as a KLZE, it will cost you $10'000 or MORE. Trust me, I was in the midst of getting the parts to build a 220-230whp N/A KLZE and that's with readilly available parts and my motor was going to cost over C$10'000 in parts and all the machining and balancing required...

You can put $10K, if you want. Hell, you can put $100K on an engine. That doesn't mean you NEED to put that money on an engine to tweak it. Trust me, I will SHOW YOU, as soon as I can get back on my feet, that you can get 200bhp off a K8 without spending more than $600 on it. Sure, it's a ton of work, but what for some people is work, for others is fun.

Nd4SpdSe wrote:Last I've heard and that I've always heard is that the K8 and KL cams are NOT compatible.

If you look here:

http://www.mx-3.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.ph ... 5&start=45

You can see Ryan (and I hope you'll agree with me that Ryan does know a thing or two about it) is stating that K8 and KL cams are compatible.
Now, he quoted it from somebody else, so I don't know who the source of the comment is, but if Ryan agrees with it, it's good enough for me, unless somebody can PROVE it's not true, or I can prove it in the future.

Nd4SpdSe wrote:Also building up a motor to make more power makes it more stressed so it won't last nearlty as long. It will also be less reliable and less streetable and in the end, even probably have a hard timing passing emission tests if you have those in your area. So say you decide to spend the money on a K8 to get it to the power of a KLDE. In the end, you've wasted money, to make the same horsepower, but less torque than a KLDE, but also made the car less reliable and less streetable for what point? Really?

That depends entirely on how much power you're trying to make, and what route you follow to get that power. To get a K8 from 130bhp to 200bhp will make no difference whatsoever in reliability, and, if you do it right, the streetability will also be unchanged.

Nd4SpdSe wrote:

Inodoro Pereyra wrote:The fact is that, power to displacement, the K8 is more powerful then the DE, period.

Your logic for your facts are skewed. Is a K8 more powerful per displacement than a KLDE? Yes. Is a K8 more powerful per displacement than the KL (KLZE); No. In the end, what does the K8 having more HP per CC over a KLDE do? Absolutely nothing. Does the K8 have more potential than the KL? No. Is the K8 worth putting money into? No.

Now you're not only twisting my words, but you're also comparing apples to oranges.My comment that the K8 was more powerful (per its displacement) than the KL-DE was in response to Ryan's statement that the K8 was never meant to be a performance engine. I never said nor implied that the K8 had more potential than the KL. I never said, nor implied than the K8 was more powerful than the KL-ZE, which is an engine intended for a DIFFERENT MARKET. I said, once again, that the K8 has more power per cc than the KL-DE, AND IT DOES. PERIOD.Whatever meaning you want to give that fact is your decision, but the indisputable truth is that the K8-DE is more of a performance engine, in stock form, than the KL-DE.

But this discussion is going nowhere anyways. The fact remains that the OP NEVER asked for advise on swapping his K8. He explicitly stated that he wanted to "soup up" his K8-DE. And he explicitly stated he didn't want to swap, period. You can think what you want about the validity of his choices, but they're still his choices. And, since it's not my place to judge him or his motives, I choose to try to help him. Meanwhile, all this stupid bantering and nitpicking has caused him to not come back to his own thread, and probably to the forum. And we're supposed to be helpful people. Shame on us.

One little thing thats been bugging me, Inodoro...

He said he doesn't want to swap, but the modifications you're suggesting (maybe not to him, but if that's the case, we're both moot) would require that the pull the motor anyway. Now, if you're pulling the K8 anyway....

Ryan wrote:One little thing thats been bugging me, Inodoro...

He said he doesn't want to swap, but the modifications you're suggesting (maybe not to him, but if that's the case, we're both moot) would require that the pull the motor anyway. Now, if you're pulling the K8 anyway....

Man, you're relentless...

I agree with you. But again, if he doesn't offer an explanation as to his motives, it's not our place to demand it. Would I swap the K8 for a KL? Definitely! Like I said before, I have a much better application for the K8. But that doesn't mean the K8 is worthless. It just means that I can get a full KL-DE for about $200, and for a few extra bucks I can get a sh!tload of power off it, while having the extra "sticker appeal", if you want, of having a bigger engine. But if somebody else doesn't think the same way, that's their problem. He may or may not have a valid reason not to swap. In any case, it's his car, and his decision. The fact remains that he came here for help, and got nothing in return.

Inodoro Pereyra wrote: The fact remains that he came here for help, and got nothing in return.

I totally disagree. He got way more than he wants

Yep. Sure...