Avoiding a messy 'Frankenstien' Swap

[mx3_ryder]

JDM mx6 had a better and larger exhaust then the k8 IIRC.

A ZE with a k8 exhaust and a ZE ecu would be putting like 180ish to the crank no problem, which is still better then a DE and it makes more torque too.

Agreed Rob... And for the record I'm not running a K8 exhaust. I have 2" mandrel bent pipe, Magnaflow flow high flow cat and no resonator and also have the JDM KL31 ecu, not a chipped K8 ecu.

Car is going in for 2 1/4" pipe after paint is done. I'm only trying out the stock manifolds solely for sound. If I don't like the sound of them more than my headers then the headers and y are being fitted back on.

I know my setup is not allowing full potential of my ZE, but again not a race car just my daily summer driver.

Not sure why were talking about my setup now but lets get back an track here guys. Great day...

[MrMazda92]

I'm not saying my engine is putting out 200 HP at the fly, but the factory numbers were achieved with stock exhaust manifolds, not headers and not a $400.00 exhaust system.

There is also minimal difference in power between curve neck and straight neck manifold, maybe 1-2 HP.

I feel people just get defensive when there's truth in whats being said.

The factory numbers weren't achieved with a K8 exhaust, NA DE tuning(which the majority of "ZE" owners use), or a curveneck intake(all but maybe 5 north american MX-3 owners).

I wonder, how much does your average MX-3 owner(non mechanic) pay for a 2.25 or 2.5" exhaust system, between piping, a cat/2nd resonator, muffler, and labor? Typical number people give is $300-400. Spending less means either doing it yourself, or keeping 2" pipe.

JDM mx6 had a better and larger exhaust then the k8 IIRC.

I would highly recommend perusing the ProbeTalk dyno threads covering intake manifold differences, they are numerous, and the numbers don't lie. Dynos may read differently for different cars on different days, but the same car with 2 intakes dynoing back to back is hard to deny.

Defensive indeed, it's kind of like the "Well I drive a Chevy, so Chevy > Ford" argument(or the other way around, it doesn't really matter).

As it happens, there's a damn good reason the true high performance builds are almost exclusively modified DE/G4 top end setups. I can't stress that enough, truly.

[MrMazda92]

Buy a Millenia KL from the junkyard for $180-400, Chipped ECU/MegaSquirt($100-500 depending on your patience), invest $250 into quality exhaust parts and weld it up yourself, bolt in either Colt or Interprep reground cams, and buy a timing kit & water pump.

There's a 200 WHP setup that will eat a "real KLZE" for less money and offer better reliability.

I could argue this all day, and the base my argument stands on is a little more solid than "This is what I did with my car, so it's the best."

At the end of the day, there is ALWAYS more than one road to a destination. Spend your money where you will, but don't spout misinformation and expect everybody to nod and agree with you.

[pattheriault]

I would agree with you MrMazda92 but it all depend on the build.. yes a DE with colt cam and MS should put out more power than a ZE.. but compare apple to apple. a ZE vs DE stock for stock the ZE should be faster.

in basically any combination a ZE will be faster unless you do some work in the bottom end that will kill the purpose of spending the money on a ZE. Thats the reason you dont see many high performance build from a ZE. why would someone pay to get a ZE if hes only going to rebuilt it with different compression piston and more aggressive cams. that would be a waste of money.

I had a ZE that I spun a rod with. now im running a DE. Yes the ZE was faster. but im gonna boost it and probably rebuild the bottom end with beefier part. but if my plan would of been to keep it stock with MS and a few bolt on, the extra 500$ would of probably been worth the power difference (IMO)

[mx3_ryder]

I'm not spouting any misinformation here as a few have agreed that it all just depends on its purpose which was exactly my point from the beginning.
Apples to apples without tearing into an engine and replacing cams and the headache of tuning megasquirt I would still purchase a ZE and be done.

[MrMazda92]

Pattheriault,
Thank you for contributing useful information.

You're right to an extent, but what Ryder failed 100% to recognize is that bolting a Japanese KL into an MX-3 isn't automatically "best" because it's an established idea, truth and reality aside.

It's as idiotic as the ludicrous idea that "Lower static CR means you can add more boost", which multiple individual parrot idiotically across the internet, having absolutely no idea how dynamic compression is calculated in the first place...

You don't see high performance builds based on the "ZE" because of the inherent design flaws, cost aside... Not one person running a 250+ HP(crank here, not wheel) Probe, MX6, or MX3 is doing it with an imported "ZE" that was never torn down and rebuilt(with DE/G4 valvetrain, Millenia S rods, etc.) before being re-purposed as a performance engine. Those who have later regretted it, and rebuilt their "ZE" with DE/G4 components, or switched over entirely.

Nobody spending $5,000 on PAR gearsets for their transmission, $2,500+ on a turbo setup, or countless more thousands on miscellaneous parts does so for a fresh off the boat "ZE". Multiple people have for DE/G4 engines though, and for good reason.

mx3_ryder,
You can roll your eyes all you want, but the I told you so is coming when you drop a valve or spin #6 buddy.
The fact is, you need to "tear into the engine" to make a "ZE" reliable in the first place.

If you are so inclined, search for threads on shady importers, dirty engines that were claimed to be "Real KLZEs", and other scary prospects. I doubt you will like what you find.
http://mx-3.com/phpBB3/search.php or http://forums.probetalk.com/search.php

Here, I'll make it easy on you, even:
http://forums.probetalk.com/showthread. ... 490&page=3
Here, this is even on MX-3.com, the same issue is highlighted beautifully for you:
http://mx-3.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f= ... ve#p624033


Misinformation comes in many forms, and you sir, are in over your head with this argument.

[mx3_ryder]

Sorry Blake, but no i'm not in over my head cause you just happen to take my comments in a direction that wasn't intended in the first place to try and make me look like an a--. I do agree with what you're getting at, but my argument was about performance in "stock form", not reliability and I'm not even going to bother reading your links as I have done so much of, but good homework.

[RobMinhas]

IMO the biggest reason that ZEs aren't used in 250+hp builds is because in order to get to 250 hp you need to either used forced induction or a retarded amount of little HP gains(stroking, custom manifolds/ITBs, exhaust, tuning, cams).

DE/G4 both respond much much better to boost then a ZE, there is no argument about that, and because of that people will buy the DE/G4 instead if that's the path they want to go down(Such as goldmember and Marcdh did, as well as what I've convinced Diezzel to do)

And like what Pattheriault said, if you're going through the effort of cams, MS and bottom end work, you're gonna want to use brand new components, not some JY rods and pistons, then why buy the more expensive engine when it's all being replaced anyway?



If I was to do a v6 build I would end up just grabbing a ZE, water pump, oil pump, timing stuff, doing new gaskets, stem seals, etc, use the correct ECU and put in a full exhaust then call it a day. I would have a reliable 200ish HP car and that's all I'd really want from it.

[MrMazda92]

Ryder,
I hate to come across as a d---, but in this instance you couldn't be farther in over your head. 5 minutes of searching(lazy searching, at that) refuted half of your argument. I have about 250 MB of data/images related specifically to the failings of the K series engines. With the exception of people running low oil, overheating their engines, or boosting the crap out of them, the "ZE" takes up 100% of those failures.


This is why most people believe the "Real ZE" is the be-all-end-all of K series performance:


I just wish it were easier to combat this, without having to play the devil's advocate all of the time.

[[LVPA]93GsSe]

The devils advocate is a necessary evil, albeit at times it can be annoying to some. I know I'm new around the boars but I've been reading around here mostly but a little around probe talk and mx6.com too. I agree with MM92 most of the failures I've read about are ZE, but there is enough info around for ZE owners that retainers are swappable and easy to replace with DE or K8s, so It's a hard argument that ZEs arnt as reliable.

[MrMazda92]

You definitely hit the nail on the head... I hate that others so seldom speak up in regards to this topic. I'm not sure if it is out of a desire to remain the few "elite" with their builds, or simply not wanting to kick the hornet's nest...

You are dead right about swapping the retainers out, unfortunately that is way beyond what most will ever feel comfortable doing with their cars.

That would also invalidate the "bolt-on 70 horsepower" idea that so many have engrained in their imaginations... To even come close to matching the reliability of the other K series engines, you need to remove both heads and source parts from an American model K8/KL.

With modification the "ZE" can be just as reliable as the DE/G4, but with a smaller budget and simpler modication(we're talking swapping cams and adjusting valve-timing back into spec vs. full on valve-train removal, and a full gasket job from the heads up here).

To even match the reliability, it will take more work and net smaller gains... A set of brand new performance reground cams, a junkyard engine, and a FULL rebuild could be had for the cost of the imported engine and ECU. Dollar for dollar, the "ZE" only takes the win if we are talking drop-in and go, without taking reliability into account.

I'll concede that it makes more power in 100% stock form than the other K series. How much more? I want to see a DE/G4 in an otherwise stock J-Spec MX-6, and how it performs on the dyno. It's safe to say that the tuning, freer flowing exhaust, and other factors nobody ever takes into account make up much of the "30 Horsepower difference" that people speak of.

I would be genuinely surprised if a sliver of added cam duration and a .5 bump in static CR net 30 HP difference in these engines. I would actually eat my own wallet, to be honest.

Ignition advance and high octane fuel would easily offer 10% gains on mostly any production car, so I don't understand why everybody imagines that the gains are all in cams and pistons.

[[LVPA]93GsSe]

I almost didn't say something because of the not kicking the nest but I said the heck with it, lol.

That's true, Ryan put it best in his healthy guide, Step three: Look at your valvetrain and admit to yourself, if applicable: "I have no idea how any of this shyte works and I am completely lost and impressed."

It does depends on how cheap you can get things really, I've been seeing people getting junkyard engine for almost $200, at the pick n pull I got to I get a v6 for a little over $100. Also how much you get a ZE for, I think the best would be(if you get a sound ZE) would be to swap retainers immediately with water, timing and oil pump kits and for an easy bolt in, with no other mods, a ZE would be best.

[Daninski]

Hey everyone.

I've finally removed my K8 and transmission and now have an empty engine bay. I've just bought a rebuild kit for the new KLZE so I'll have new rings and gaskets. I'm starting to get pretty intimated in the shadow of building the top end with all the different options...

What I've decided thus far (And keeping in mind my car has to adhere to strict regulations for California law) is that I'll be going with the following setup:

KLZE Block, KL31 Cams, K8 Heads, K8 stock IM. (if this is NOT the optimal setup for California users, please let me know, my research seems to suggest it is however)

I know the title of this post seems counter-intuitive to the selections I've chosen, but I do have to keep in mind these regulations. As such I need your guys opinions on keeping the cleanest, most powerful, and most efficient ways to pull this off... The MAIN concern is the damn CEL (aka ECU set up), which will need to be off when I send it in for the smog check. I've read up on different ways to do an ECU setup (rather intimidating stuff), but I really want to avoid unnecessary cable harnesses, splicing, ghost cables and sensors that don't belong anywhere, ect ect ect.

I know there's no way to avoid a zombie engine and setup in my situation, but I need your guys advice on at least making it as clean as possible. It's really hard to find info on a search (and trust me, I've done it) that will provide useful information to help a California KLZE swapper.

Keep in mind two very important things: The MX-3 was once an automatic that was swapped to a manual, and the CEL will need to be off.

You guys are awesome!

Just thought I'd post his original post to get this thread back on track. He's asking for some basic advice, I answered the best I could without getting into a pissing contest over it. Lets keep it basic and just answer the questions he posted.
He needs a stock looking system so who has a stock intake system for starters, he'll need that.
To answer your question about a Zombie engine, there's no reason your engine can't look stock once it's in. The whole idea is to simply remove one engine and install another with all the same components. If you swap the ECU and VAF no one will notice. Both my ZE MX-3s looked stock except for the CAI and headers. Stick to stock Kl parts and you'll be fine.

[mx3_ryder]

There's plenty of info floating around that indicates "all k-series" engines have there faults and failures as with all engines do in some sort.

Yes the ZE had weak retainers, but replace them with DE retainers and springs and be satisfied knowing in "stock" form, you have a ZE as reliable as a DE with better performance...
I'm Done with this thread.....

[Daninski]

There's plenty of info floating around that indicates "all k-series" engines have there faults and failures as with all engines do in some sort.

Yes the ZE had weak retainers, but replace them with DE retainers and springs and be satisfied knowing in "stock" form, you have a ZE as reliable as a DE with better performance...
I'm Done with this thread.....

Does that mean your taking your bat and ball and going home.