Noisy Trunk Because of Stiff Springs

illapino · Post by **illapino** » February 10th, 2007, 4:11 pm

i've decided that the noise from the trunk is merely that my springs are so stiff. The purpose of springs in the suspension of all cars out the factory is to cushion the ride right? well ordering and installing Ground Controls in my suspension with Eibachs with a spring rate of 250 and 200 i guess is the reason why the trunk is so damn noisy now ... the immediate remedy that comes to mind is replacing my springs with softer springs, but of course that isn't going to happen because i've dumped alot of money into these new ones in there now, so anyone have any ideas on how to make the car more quieter over rough rides in compensation for stiffer springs ?

i know sports cars are supposed to have stiff springs, that's why i got them that way. but it makes me wonder how noisy those other sports cars can be then. someone's said that the Acura NSX is extremely stiff and u feel every bump, but i don't know what the story is for how the car rattles if at all ... please give me ideas

Yoda · Post by **Yoda** » February 10th, 2007, 5:46 pm

I don't think it could be your springs . I have 275lb/in in the front and 500lb/in in the rear with a 23mm rear anti roll bar and have no squeaks, rattles, clunks or bangs from the rear of the car at all. In fact it improved over conventional struts and springs.

Typhoonk · Post by **Typhoonk** » February 10th, 2007, 10:29 pm

can try removing everything from the back, then slowly put stuff back till you find all the squeeks or rattles

illapino · Post by **illapino** » February 11th, 2007, 1:33 am

trust me. my trunk has been stripped of absolutely everything for the past 4 months as i said in a topic before and the sounds are exactly the same ...

but hey, if you're running harder springs than me, then i guess i'm wrong about my stiff spring theory ... this is just another no-brainer that i just can never solve! it's all smooth sailing and nicely paved highways, but as soon as you get the slightest uneven roads in the city: "CLUNK BONG TAP TAP TAP KA-CHUK KAC-HUK KLUB-KLUB-KLUB"

i've been researching this issue for ages as it seems to be common with many other mx3ers who either put in subs or install their own suspension, but i've ruled out the new struts and all that ... the only thing i can think of is rear bushings, but could it really be ... ?

"heyyyy ... are you the little guy makin all the noise in here?"

Steeb · Post by **Steeb** » February 11th, 2007, 2:56 am

it could be because of the springs. a rear strut bar will reduce a little bit of noise as does tilt on the sunroof with the windows closed at freeway speeds.

illapino · Post by **illapino** » February 12th, 2007, 6:49 am

"as does tilt on the sunroof" ??

Yoda · Post by **Yoda** » February 12th, 2007, 12:59 pm

illapino wrote:but hey, if you're running harder springs than me, then i guess i'm wrong about my stiff spring theory ... this is just another no-brainer that i just can never solve! it's all smooth sailing and nicely paved highways, but as soon as you get the slightest uneven roads in the city: "CLUNK BONG TAP TAP TAP KA-CHUK KAC-HUK KLUB-KLUB-KLUB"

Sound like struts that has bottomed out or has bent the rod. You said you have a GC kit installed. You probably didn't shim the sleeves to start, and your probably are trying to run the car way to low without tender springs. Each time you hit a bump the spring is coming off its seat then doesn't come back down onto the seat properly then with the next bump it shifts back into place. If you run your car lowered more that 1.5" there is a very good chance that the strut piston rod has bottomed out and bent. If the spring is loose chances are that a lateral load was placed on the strut rod and bent. Bent rods don't compress and rebound freely and you probably starting to loose internal pressure increasing the problem. Use to see this a lot 8 to 10 years ago when coil over sleeve kits first came out and guys were slamming their car into the weeds with no one took in to consideration for suspension geometry or compression and rebound. Made for some really nice road accidents when something decided to let go.

illapino · Post by **illapino** » February 13th, 2007, 1:41 am

maybe i exaggerated with the capitalized sound effects i included, but the noises i described through those are actual renditions, just perhaps at a lesser frequency than I typed in one line. But if we are going back to the struts and springs on this issue, then how can I check if what you say are really bent or bottomed out? Lift my vehicle and then where exactly do I look?

And as you may know, the Ground Control coilovers have to be modified to fit over Tokico struts (and likely any struts made for the MX3) by simply removing a top cap of some sort on the struts themselves (only one pair of struts only though, front or was it rear?): only then can the Ground Controls slide over and onto the struts. Would this modification had had any say in all this racket now?

The drop (height-adjustable coilovers) was to a half inch above the tires, which is not as low as the typical asian enforces on his ride, if you recall all the Hondas in tuner magazines that have their front tires posed at an angle, showing the tiniest clearance from under the fender to do so(!). Someone has said my drop was neither too high nor too low. It's absolutely smooth sailing on well-paved roads, but when it gets uneven is when the racket begins. And let me add that it's not exclusive to the trunk/rear. It sounds as though the body of the car itself is somehow just beginning to internally decay just from its age which would deem all this racket plausible for a 1992. What year is yours yoda?

Yoda · Post by **Yoda** » February 13th, 2007, 11:24 pm

illapino wrote:maybe i exaggerated with the capitalized sound effects i included, but the noises i described through those are actual renditions, just perhaps at a lesser frequency than I typed in one line. But if we are going back to the struts and springs on this issue, then how can I check if what you say are really bent or bottomed out? Lift my vehicle and then where exactly do I look?

To test the struts will require cutting them open to inspect the valves and seals. A bend rod will require bolt the strut in a test jig and runing a dial indicator up and down the shaft then leave the indicator in a fixed position compress the strut to see in the shaft deflects as it travels. Tokico has had so many problems with cars being lowered more that 1.75" they built a tattle tail inside there product. All replacement struts for the MX-3 except for the factory P/N# are actually pre existing 323 P/N#. The 323 have a slightly longer stoke in the rear than a MX-3 which means that the rear will bottom out long before the front.

illapino wrote:And as you may know, the Ground Control coilovers have to be modified to fit over Tokico struts (and likely any struts made for the MX3) by simply removing a top cap of some sort on the struts themselves (only one pair of struts only though, front or was it rear?): only then can the Ground Controls slide over and onto the struts. Would this modification had had any say in all this racket now?

I've never actually installed a set of GC myself. I have a set of one-off struts of Multimatic coil-over struts and the main and tender springs are off the shelf parts. These look like shocks for a tank the piston rod and the diameter of the body are almost the same size. Fortunately these were made to be rebuildable because I still have to open them up every 10000-15000km and replace the seals due to lateral deflection.

illapino wrote:The drop (height-adjustable coilovers) was to a half inch above the tires, which is not as low as the typical asian enforces on his ride, if you recall all the Hondas in tuner magazines that have their front tires posed at an angle, showing the tiniest clearance from under the fender to do so(!). Someone has said my drop was neither too high nor too low. It's absolutely smooth sailing on well-paved roads, but when it gets uneven is when the racket begins. And let me add that it's not exclusive to the trunk/rear. It sounds as though the body of the car itself is somehow just beginning to internally decay just from its age which would deem all this racket plausible for a 1992. What year is yours yoda?

That side ways angle you are talking about is called improperly adjusted camber a lot of the ricers still do this to get the tire travel up inside the fenders instead of getting a properly engineers suspension. On a Honda it is a matter of spending another $400-500 for the parts to pull the wheels in at the bottom. Have impropperly adjusted camber puts a lot of stress on the inside side wall of the tires increasing chances of a blowout. It also puts stress on the wheel bearings, suspension bushing, ball joints and a lateral load on the strut piston shaft which is going to cause all of them to fail prematurely. The rear wheel bearing in the GS are especially fragile even without lowering the car they usually need to be replaced every 0000-60000km like clock work. Last summer I passed this kids who insisted on slamming his MX-3 into the weeds the ditch later I found out the inside roll of bearing froze from the deflection caused by having to much camber and it shear the spindle off causing him to cross 2 lanes of oncoming traffic before spinning in the ditch. I was told by friend in the police dept they gave him close to $4000 in fines and 10 point on his license and his car didn't even come close to passing inspection due to the suspension.

My car is a mid year production '93. Mind you my car is only lower 1"-1.3" from stock with 8" springs. I have constant tension on the springs even when the strut is fully extended because I not trying to lower the lower spring seat more than the length of the spring even if I was I have tender springs to maintain pressure on the main spring even if they were to lift on the top and bottom seat. I betting that if you jacked up your car and grabbed the springs that will be loose in the seats and you may even have some vertical clearance between the spring and seat. Chances are if you raise your car to a more normal height your noises will go away.

illapino · Post by **illapino** » February 16th, 2007, 1:12 am

well for one thing, my whole description of a tire peeking from under a fender in import magazine was completely misunderstood. i know what you thought i said, the crooked wheels, but that's not what i said ... neway, that didn't matter neway ... it's just best you just drive my car yoda coz u know this car inside out. i come here alot and report my problems but i know words can never describe the actual situation. so i think much of this discussion is going off in tangents: i'm quite firmly assured that the noises aren't the struts. When i bought my car, the stock struts then were noisy: rattling like hell no matter where I went. so i know what rotten struts sound like from pure experience. It's not like that at all. Only on rough roads do the noises kick in. And by saying that I'm firmly convinced that the noises aren't the struts, I'm laying blame on the car's bodyframe itself. that's where i believe all the racket is coming from! I mean, it like creaks and make little muffled bangs emanating from door panels and the hatchlid panel. i just can't decide where to look first, especially now that i've removed every single panel and object in the (what's referred to as) the trunk only to hear no difference. It's just being noisy under the "pressure" of rough roads, if you know what i mean. As if the new struts are so strong, but the body isn't, you know? Like brand new pillars in a century old building, you know? I'm fairly sure it's the body. It just sounds so raggety ... Little things like these are so much more aggravating. mechanics are trained to do technical repairs, brilliant rebuilds, with a knack for machinery, but when it comes to complaints over a noisy car cabin, everyone's clueless either because they're just uninterested since noises don't matter in an old car or because Noisy Car Cabin 101 was never offered in mechanic school ...

i just wish someone would just drive my car and know the solution. I've tried a couple mechanics now but they think and think and i'm out the door looking for my next joyrider ...

illapino · Post by **illapino** » February 17th, 2007, 1:48 am

well i want to the motorsports shop that installed my struts, my endlinks, my springs, and my coilovers, and turns out they never replaced my strut mounts ... .. ... ... ...

could this very well explain the body being brittle where they're held to the struts, given my last post? ... poor bearing?

tehbrookzorz · Post by **tehbrookzorz** » February 17th, 2007, 7:33 pm

Who did that, the guys down in rock bay?

illapino · Post by **illapino** » February 18th, 2007, 4:01 am

it doesn't matter who did it ... whether or not i explicitly asked them to replace the strut mounts as well is completely forgotten in the past (although i have some recollection of the reasons why i could've assumed they were replaced), but too many suspension parts were getting replaced during these visits that i will, for my own safety, lay blame on myself for neglecting to get the mounts replaced with everything else ... well, to consume more lines of written debauchery, I really don't know if these old mounting plates are contributing to my car racketing over rough roads ... i still think the noises come from the body frame of the car itself, from different points throughout, but at least for now i can somewhat make sense of it if mounting plates from my stock suspension (which was way noisier) remained in the vehicle only to continue their own percentage of the overall sound that the entire old stock suspension together produced ...

anyway, the technical point is: worn mounting plates sandwiched between hard new struts and an old bodyframe ... = all the racket ?

neutral · Post by **neutral** » February 18th, 2007, 9:27 am

illapino wrote:well i want to the motorsports shop that installed my struts, my endlinks, my springs, and my coilovers, and turns out they never replaced my strut mounts ... .. ... ... ... could this very well explain the body being brittle where they're held to the struts, given my last post? ... poor bearing?

The coilovers are probably beating the hell out of those mounts, which normally can take the beating but... Your ride is 15 yrs old and if the rear mounts are orig equip, paired now with brand new stiff coilovers...

Body is probably ok though. The rear mounts have no thrust bearing, only the fronts need a bearing to allow rotation for steering. Broken strut mounts make a hell of a racket and the lateral movement of the broken mount transmits through the body some nasty creaks, knocks, pops and heavy sounding/feeling "body-bangs." Only way to check them is to pull the strut assemblies off. Sounds like you've isolated the most likely cause of the noise.

illapino · Post by **illapino** » February 18th, 2007, 8:22 pm

exactly. exactly. exactly!

damn. it was at least $300 to install the struts, and my second visit at least another $300 to install coilovers. damn. no way am i paying more labor for the same area ... i'll have to pull this one off myself ... my plan is to get a Cusco front camber kit then for the front ... any recommendations on what mounts to install on the rear? (preferrably camber oriented as well, but Cusco doesn't make a rear kit) ...