Reliable 400whp KL-ZE/DE

[Custom_V6_Limited_SE]

The urge for more power just keeps coming back to me... I am thinking about buying a low milage KL-ZE next summer and building it so it can be boosted. I convinced myself that I really don't need more than about 400whp because it won't hook up. So, I would like to know what pistons, rods, valve retainers... I will need to hold 400whp reliably (daily driven) with a ZE. Also, what would I have to put into a KL-DE to keep it reliable at 400whp? Obviously I will need megasquirt, motor mounts, axles... but, I just need to know about the motor parts. For the ZE, I was thinking HP Millenia Rods, Wiseco Forged Pistons, some good rings, and some sort of valve retainers and retainer springs. For the DE, I was thinking just the pistons, rings, and rods. This is assuming that the engine is in very good condition. Any comments on what I should or should not get? Any parts I left out (probably)?

[Spinkx79]

A supercharger

[Custom_V6_Limited_SE]

I don't wanna lose my A/C. Turbos are technically more efficient anyway; even if they don't have as much low end power.

[Legato626]

you will get more power out of a turbo then a super.

[Tunes67]

Yeah but superchargers are just way cooler than turbos LOL

Tunes67

[BuGS]

I wouldn't go with a megasquirt. I would go with more like a TEC III or TEC II system or equivalent. Although there are many people who swear by megasquirts they are still not that reliable, and I would even go better than Haltek if I was going for Reliable 400whp. Honestly, there is a reason good Engine control systems cost that much.

And I would also say that you will need a full rebuild, even if the engine is low milage I would still do a whole rebuild, meaning, new everything from oil pump to freeze plugs, everything. If you want reliable you better start off with something as close as to comming out of the factory as you can get. And yes, some rods, pistons, valves, and a nice headgasket. Get a headgasket proven to hold the power, not just a cheap Felpro or something...

[rebel2k4]

I wouldn't go with a megasquirt. I would go with more like a TEC III or TEC II system or equivalent. Although there are many people who swear by megasquirts they are still not that reliable, and I would even go better than Haltek if I was going for Reliable 400whp. Honestly, there is a reason good Engine control systems cost that much.

And I would also say that you will need a full rebuild, even if the engine is low milage I would still do a whole rebuild, meaning, new everything from oil pump to freeze plugs, everything. If you want reliable you better start off with something as close as to comming out of the factory as you can get. And yes, some rods, pistons, valves, and a nice headgasket. Get a headgasket proven to hold the power, not just a cheap Felpro or something...

Umm... few comments. I have had megasquirt for 10k miles. I drive my car every day, have gone on several hundred mile trips. It depends on who builds it and how it's set up.

There is a reason why other standalones cost that much yes. Because they have a bunch of people to employ. Megasquirt is open source, meaning people like you and me got it to where it is (though much smarter than either of us)

So, if there is such a good reason they cost more, what is it? If it is better, tell me why. Statements without proof hold no weight in my book.

As far as freeze plugs... dont you know the K series V6's are all aluminum? No freeze plugs.

Anyhow, I am doing ~ 400 whp on a stock motor and holding strong. I dont recommend it. If I were you I'd shoot for rurockn's millenia H beams and some forged pistons of your choice (BRC has good prices). And as far as a supercharger? Are you joking? WHat kind of SC is gonna do 400hp on a KL??

[Custom_V6_Limited_SE]

If I go with a KL-DE, should I get any after market parts for the head or would a standard rebuild be fine for the head?

[Custom_V6_Limited_SE]

O, rebel2k4 I noticed your sig says you have a new motor. Is that a rebuilt KL-DE or did you actually buy it new/semi-new? The reason I ask is I have found it very difficult to find a low milage KL-DE. Actually, I guess I could get a brand spanken new one from importperformanceparts.net for like $1800 + shipping. But, I would rather get a dirt cheap low milage DE and spend that money on an upgrade rebuild kit. Let me know if you know where to get one.

[BuGS]

I wouldn't go with a megasquirt. I would go with more like a TEC III or TEC II system or equivalent. Although there are many people who swear by megasquirts they are still not that reliable, and I would even go better than Haltek if I was going for Reliable 400whp. Honestly, there is a reason good Engine control systems cost that much.

And I would also say that you will need a full rebuild, even if the engine is low milage I would still do a whole rebuild, meaning, new everything from oil pump to freeze plugs, everything. If you want reliable you better start off with something as close as to comming out of the factory as you can get. And yes, some rods, pistons, valves, and a nice headgasket. Get a headgasket proven to hold the power, not just a cheap Felpro or something...

Umm... few comments. I have had megasquirt for 10k miles. I drive my car every day, have gone on several hundred mile trips. It depends on who builds it and how it's set up.

There is a reason why other standalones cost that much yes. Because they have a bunch of people to employ. Megasquirt is open source, meaning people like you and me got it to where it is (though much smarter than either of us)

So, if there is such a good reason they cost more, what is it? If it is better, tell me why. Statements without proof hold no weight in my book.

As far as freeze plugs... dont you know the K series V6's are all aluminum? No freeze plugs.

I mean there are exceptions to the rules, but Megasquirt are really not that reliable for the MAJORITY of people. I have two friends local who have tried to get their cars running right and both have had problems. I also have a brother who has a Haltek in his RX7 who is aiming for 450whp and he barely had 220 and the haltek had a Grimlin and it detonated. $10,000 down the drain. So really if you need any more specific reasons go talk to a tuner. If you understand tuning is the most important part of a build, then take the word of a tuner. I have talked to Ralph from GroundZero in portland who DDs a 750whp RX7 which still has a 13B. Now that I think about it, he did say one important thing, sensors. Why build a setup and trust a brand new $10,000 engine with sensors with thousands of miles on them, and were not meant for that kind of stress. But really go talk to a tuner who is pushing a car to its limits, and drives it as a DD.

And as far as the freeze plugs, that was just an example of what I would replace, that small of a thing. Not saying the K-series has freeze plugs because I am a 4cyl guy, not a v6 guy, so I really don't know the specifics.

But if I was going to do a big build, I wouldn't trust it on a $500 build it yourself problem, cause I am not perfect and I would probably screw something up, no matter how hard I went over stuff, maybe thats why you are on your 2nd engine?

[JWMotorsports]

Mega Squirt isn't a bad system, more control than a S-AFC but no where near the control of the Microtech, Haltech, Accel DFI, Electromotive, AEM, Motech...or the likes. Those systems have more tuning points and the new systems also overlay TPS maps over the normal speed/density maps. Can run closed loop AFR's at all throttle positions, nitrous control out the yin yang, EGT individual cyl. cylinder tuning, knock control, the list keeps going. The Mega Squirt is however a very overlooked asset with the next best system price for performance being the Microtech systems which come with start up maps good enough to drive your car to the dyno on for most any car but cost double what the Mega Squirt is. The Mega Squirt only has 12 fuel points which is plenty for most systems. The other EMS systems I listed though have a minimum of 16 points and can be tuned to achive much better gas milage and power due mostly to the sequential fuel injection which the Mega Squirt doesn't offer. The Mega Squirt can only do SDF (Simultaneous Double Fire) or Batch Fire (2 banks of injectors). I doubt the Mega Squirt can control absurd injector sizes like the above systems as well. The AEM for example can obtain a stock idle with 1600cc primary injectors and the other systems up to atleast 1000cc injectors.

Currently I'm using an old school Haltech E6K and make 500HP on a B6T...daily driven with 1000cc injectors and fuel system that can support 750HP on Forced Induction. The car gets a MINIMUM of 24mpg even with me getting on it a lot. I made 400WHP on a stock bottom end B6T w/ the SMALL B6 rods and it took it for over 10,000miles seeing an average boost pressure of 26psi on the so called crapy Fel-Pro MLS Head Gasket. The rod FINALLY failed from pure metal fatigue (snapped in half just under the wrist pin on cyl. 1. Thats the small rods limits and Mini Monster can vouch for that as he found similar results using the TEC III.

Believe it or not, most cars can take 300 WHP (provided they have a closed deck design or are fitted with darton sleeves w/ modular deck). I highly advise to use a new MLS (Multi Layer Steel) head gasket w/ ARP head studs and a good tuning system. I have a friend for example owns a Dodge Colt w/ a 1.6L 4G61 turbo engine. It has over 270,000 miles on the bottom end and was fitted with a MLS head gasket and ARP Head Studs. It uses larger injectors w/ a S-AFC and a large hot wire MAF conversion on the stock EMS. Using a T3/60-1 it has been making well over 300WHP for over a year of daily driving now. He drove it to the track averaging 34+ MPG.

It is all in the tuning for the most part, that is why most people blow engines up with less than 300WHP. It isn't that the parts are that week (there are a few engines that are an exception to the rule) but because the engine is improperly tuned by joe shmoe on the butt dyno with a freakin narrow band A/F gauge...I'm sorry but your just asking for a disaster if this is all you use for tuning! You need EGT data to go with the AFRs from a wide band and street tuning with a knowledgable partner yeilds the best drivability. Dyno tuning is for final calibration to get every last drop of power before burning down the engine. EGTs are what tell you your about to burn the engine down and are about the best early warning system you can use to prevent sever engine damage. Also the AFRs aren't the same for every engine and neither are the EGTs. This is why Pro Tuners charge $150+ per hour to dyno tune cars. There is a lot more to it than most people have common knowledge to tune a car. The information is obtainable though and I've made several replies in the past explaining some of these tuning methods.

Couple inside tips.....

-open deck blocks SUCK for big power as the floating cyl. walls have a nasty habbit to flutter and crack. This can be fixed by utilizing Darton sleeves with the MID system.

-EGTs tell you your engine is about to burn down BEFORE it actually happens. Very good tool for detecting detination as well.

-Narrow Band Gauges are a bad idea for tuning, fine for keeping an eye on parameters AFTER the car is properly tuned. Wide bands are the only way to fly now days as they sell for as low as at least $320.

-Oil Pressure is the life of your engine...a gauge will tell you how well your engine is living and can alert you to problems via lower than noraml pressures before damage is done...if you watch it

-Big boost doesn't mean big power, it only matters how many CFM of air your flowing per pound of boost pressure

-MLS gaskets are only as good as the Head and Deck surface finish...the smoother the better for a MLS head gasket. I've used both the Cometic and the Fel-Pro MLS head gaskets...BOTH are VERY good. Most head gasket failures occur from weak head studs due to stretch under pressure. This stretch is caused by to lightly torquing the bolts. Broken head studs would be from being overly torqued. ARP studs seem to work best on Mazda B-series, Toyota 2JZ & 7M, & DSM engines when torqued to around 72lb/ft. of torque. See ARPs web site for info on the truth about torquing bolts...some of you will be supprised what you'll learn!

Happy tuning

[93_4Banger]

coming from a guy thats running a SAFC2.

[Custom_V6_Limited_SE]

I am a perfectionist and I am going to have to buy everything for it and tune it as perfectly as possible even if it sets back the turbo part of it. I currently have the book "How to Tune and Modify Engine Management Systems" by Jeff Hartman. Is this the most extensive book available on the subject or should I get another book or two or three as well? I also have "Maximum Boost" by Corky Bell.

[Custom_V6_Limited_SE]

O, a question for JWMotorsports. Are all of the high-end stand alones pretty much equal (such as the ones you listed)? Or would you recommend a specific one that would be the best?

[BuGS]

coming from a guy thats running a SAFC2.

Lol, And I have already expressed why i run that, I got it for $100 and it does fine for a 225whp setup. Thats all I have ever looked for and it gets me by just fine.


But I totally agree with you on headgasket JW. I just live out here in the PNW where all the felpro overstock is, so we still have the single layer composite crap. My friend just put one in his boosted talon, and now he is replacing it again. So I should of specified more like you did.

But I still keep my opinion about MS, and that is why I don't like Microtech too. When you use your old sensors stuff happens. One thing happens and your engine is crap. I have seen at least 4 rotory engines all blow up because they had 3k motors and trusted that their 150k+ mile coilpacks would still work perfect, one spark detonation and their 3mm apex seals are gone....