KL-ZE lacks power. Why?..

nightnic · Post by **nightnic** » May 29th, 2006, 12:16 pm

I've recently swapped K8 to KL-ZE and though there is a performance increase both in torgue and horses, I dont feel it matches the target one (160 torque, 195 hp) even close. I'd say its about 160 in horses. My setup is like this:

Step One: KL-ZE (KL31-1A1), Millenia manifold, K8 ECU, K8 VAF (JE50).

Step Two: Eunos-800 gearbox and 2.5" exhaust. Resonator stays stock (Resonator is the can at the end, I beleive).

After step one performance was uneven. I've experienced two really, really fast accelerations up to 75mph, it was like real neck-breaker. But mostly acceleration was really moderate. Probably just a bit faster than stock K8.

After step two performance is more or less even between accelerations, but it is still very moderate, probably even more moderate than in step one (this might be because of the gearbox, but I beleive it should be shorter shifts or at least the same as stock).

The question is, where to look? What could be the bottleneck? I know I dont have KL36 ECU neither KL02 VAF, could it be because of that or any more thoughts?

PS: Pics of the engine and manifold here: http://www.nicnilov.com/swap/index.html

fieromx3 · Post by **fieromx3** » May 29th, 2006, 1:50 pm

well get the proper ecu and you dont want the kl-02 vaf u want ur current je50.

the proper ecu can make a nice difference cuz its properly tuned for that engine plus the vris points will be more accurate

ho bag · Post by **ho bag** » May 29th, 2006, 2:41 pm

I believe you can get a chip for your stock ecu from a guy on probtalk that uses the JE50 vaf and k8 ecu with proper ZE fuel/timing and vris points.

nightnic · Post by **nightnic** » May 29th, 2006, 3:02 pm

I don't think its because of vris points. VRIS adds what, about 10 horses above two segments of your power curve if you look on dyno charts. And as I said, the feel is more likely as there is about 160hp. The car takes off at about 3000 and ever since its acceleration rate stays more or less the same and very moderate.

I think I still have to try KL02 VAF since JE50 with K8 ECU calculate air amounts for quantity of fuel, used by K8 engine (vise versa, actually, but still). And since KL has larger injectors, mixture gets rich. This I can tell from my exhaust gasses color too. This should give performance gain, but I'm not sure, if it'd it be that large. This is cheaper try, too, than switching ECUs.

As many of posts here show, there may be not much difference in ECU setups except for vris points and may be idle tune up. This makes me beleive, ECU gains importance when you try to squeeze last horses out of your car, and I'm looking into turning out quarter of the herd yet

lakersfan1 · Post by **lakersfan1** » May 29th, 2006, 3:02 pm

fieromx3 wrote:well get the proper ecu and you dont want the kl-02 vaf u want ur current je50.

I won't run the KL ECU's on my KL right now. I'm getting a K8 EPROM with proper VRIS points made for me right now. I'll use that with KL02 VAF on the KL engine.

ho bag · Post by **ho bag** » May 29th, 2006, 3:08 pm

Acutally if you do some research the ZE uses the JE50 vaf overseas. I would just use the ZE chip with JE50 vaf on stock k8 ecu and be done with it.

nightnic · Post by **nightnic** » May 29th, 2006, 3:15 pm

ho bag wrote:ZE uses the JE50 vaf overseas

Yes, I know that. But provided that KL02 VAF costs about 25 bucks and KL36 ECU is more like $250, I'd stay with KL02 for the first try, since there a guys promoting this setup as well as KL ECU and JE50. This boils down to two options, so no questions. The question is, what else might hold the power?

jschrauwen · Post by **jschrauwen** » May 29th, 2006, 3:34 pm

nightnic wrote:
ho bag wrote:ZE uses the JE50 vaf overseas
Yes, I know that. But provided that KL02 VAF costs about 25 bucks and KL36 ECU is more like $250, I'd stay with KL02 for the first try, since there a guys promoting this setup as well as KL ECU and JE50. This boils down to two options, so no questions. The question is, what else might hold the power?

You can stay with the KL02 VAF and since there's a $$ issue you will want to marry that VAF with it's corresponding KL01 ECU (MX6/626). At least that will be a better combo and probably just as cheap for you to acquire the KL01 ECU. Of course it won't give you the hp you're looking for, it may be your best option. By the way, the feeling of approximately 160hp is about all your going to get anyway without the correct ECU/VAF. The 195hp you quoted earlier is crank hp and not wheel hp. Correct ECU/VAF could give a possible 170-175whp. You also mentioned using the Eunos800 gearbox....you mean you're using an ATX tranny??? If so, you're going to loose a slight bit more hp.

nightnic · Post by **nightnic** » May 29th, 2006, 3:45 pm

No, its a manual tranny, may be I just messed up the car name.

I wouldn't say there is a strict $$ issue, but I want to be sure the money spent the best way. I haven't heard before about KL01 ECU/KL02 VAF config, hence the question:
What are possible combinations of ECU/VAF/TB/Millenia Manifold for KL-ZE engine with respective power gain estimate?

vozaday2000 · Post by **vozaday2000** » May 29th, 2006, 3:49 pm

You said you had 2 good runs but that rest have been bad, correct? I would check your timing, Make sure your engine is grounded properly. I personally recomend the k8 ecu and je50 set up until you get either the eprom or msns. the k8 ecu and kl02 vaf had a lack of power compaired to the je50. plus the engine ran lean with the kl02.

nightnic · Post by **nightnic** » May 29th, 2006, 3:52 pm

Actually, I'm looking into purchasing a MegaSquirt EMS to fine tune ECU output, so I'm interested in other parts mutual compatibility. I don't know if VAF and TB kind will actually matter for MegaSquirt-powered car, but I think its better start with proven non-EMS setup, so that EMS will take off in better environment.

nightnic · Post by **nightnic** » May 29th, 2006, 3:56 pm

vozaday2000 wrote:I would check your timing

Thats a good point, thanks, I will. By the way, how do you do that?

I forgot to mention, my distributor comes from K8 as well.

vozaday2000 wrote:the engine ran lean with the kl02.

Won't the amount of air shown by KL02 (excessive from K8ECU standpoint) be compensated by larger KL injectors (which K8ECU doesnt know anything about)?

vozaday2000 · Post by **vozaday2000** » May 29th, 2006, 4:01 pm

nightnic wrote:Won't the amount of air shown by KL02 (excessive from K8ECU standpoint) be compensated by larger KL injectors (which K8ECU doesnt know anything about)?

I don't actually know, you would think so, but the dyno said that i was running at 14.8 fuel ratio. And i was talking with Rick and he said just put in the je50 and I noticed a hp gain. And the car runs rich. This weekend I am goign to find out which maf gets better gas mileage.

For timing you have to get a timing light. If you take it to a shop they will generally charge $20 to do it. But i would ask the shop first. or you could buy one on ebay anywhere from $20 to $50.

Rick Johnson · Post by **Rick Johnson** » May 29th, 2006, 7:54 pm

K8 ecu with Je50 VAF, WOT power is almost identical the kl31/36 ecu's. It's the shits tho for idling, cruising and cold starts. On cold starts it's super rich, like im talking you could probably light the exhaust on fire lol.

2.5mazda · Post by **2.5mazda** » May 29th, 2006, 10:10 pm

Mine sucks balls too, it was good the first day, now it just feels like a strong DE....... AAARRRGGG!!!