$2,000+ in repairs? Youch!!!

[tatsu]

Yup, that's what we have been quoted to do the head gaskets and timing belt replacement on our 92 GS.

Since the labour alone would be more than a week's pay for me, I'm considering taking a week off to do it myself. I'm a fairly bright guy, and pretty mechanically inclined, but this is a MAJOR undertaking, and I'm not sure that I can do it myself.

Anyone done it before, and have any suggestions or advice? Any special tools that I will absolutely have to have?

Thanks in advance for all replies...

[Taras]

My Advice is do a KL-Ze swap instead....

[mx3TT]

Just wanted to say your making the right move by doing it yourself. Shops will charge you through the roof(obviously) to that becuase its so many labor hours.

[curtklze]

here is a list of parts that you SHOULD replace when doing this job, if you dont you may have a problem with leaks and other stuff.

Valve cover gaskets, new oil and oil filter, all new cylinder head bolts, both cylinder head gaskets, intake manifold gaskets, exhaust manifold gaskets, spark plugs, timming belt tensioner, timming belt, change the timming belt tensioner bolts and the timing belt idler bolts (trust me, you dont want them to brake after all the work you do ), thermostat, water pump.

this will make sure you wont have any vacuum or oil leaks, it will also bring all your maintaince up to date so you shouldnt have to tear into the engine for about 100,000 KM.

just a recomendation.

also if you buy a ZE you should do all this work (except for the head gaskets) anyway to make sure you wont have any problem in the future.

1) get lots of small boxes and ziplock bags.
2) put the nuts and bolts in them and label them as you take it appart so you dont lose anything and you will know where they all go.

eg: all the valve cover bolts in 1 bag and lable it "Valve cover bolts"..ect


you will need a torque wrench to torque down the clinder head bolts. Its actually a large rachet that makes a click when it reaches a certian torque.

You should send the heads to be checked for cracks and for warpage, its always a good Idea to get the heads machined, this will make sure that the head will be perfectly flat.

when I used to send heads out to my local machine shop, they would clean them in a steam cleaning tank, then (for aluminum heads) the put the heads in a fluid and use compressed air to check for any leaks. If there is a crack the air will make bubbles in the fluid.
they would also check for EXCESSIVE warpage of the mating surface, if they are too warped you CANT machine the warpage out and they wont seal properly.

If there are no leaks, you dont need to have the heads rebuilt, just have the mateing surface machined flat.

on the block, use some fine sand paper (800 ro 1000 grit) to lightly clean the mating surface if it needs any cleaning, the block is aluminum and will get damaged if you use to harsh a sand paper, the best thing to use is a soft plastic abrasive disc from 3M that is ment for this type of job, but you need a spical adaptor to use it in your drill or die grinder.
just dont sand in 1 spot too much or the surface will be uneven and wont seal properly.

since the headgaskest are metal, you shouldnt need to clean the block too much, try just using some brake cleaner and some steel wool(the grit you want to use is #00 or #000)

Ask Mr.Spanky he has taken appart a few K8 engines, he can tell you what the block looks like and if they would need any excessive cleaning or sanding.

you can find some of his posts in the F.I. or toronto sections if you need is info.

I dont want to discourage you at all, I know some people have just pulled the heads and slaped on a set of head gaskets, reused the intake and valve cover gaskets and it all worked out ok, but I have also seen the problems with not doing it properly. It would really suck for you to do all this work and then still have a compression leak or have a misterious "I did my own head gaskest and now it doesnt run right" problem.

when I used to sell head gasket jobs it was beacuse of 1 of a coupple things.

1)over heating due to comperssion gasses getting into the cooling system and causing air bubbles.
2)coolant getting into a cylinder causing a missfire, dis-colouration and deposits on the spark plug.
3)coolant getting into the oiling system, it will cause the oil level to rise and the oil will look like a chocolate milkshake.
4)oil getting into the cooling system, oil in the overflow bottle, looks like chocolate milk shake.

then we tell the customer its a head or gasket problem, we have to pull the heads off, send them out and get them checked to see if they are ok to reuse.

we include all the gaskets, checking, re-surfacing of the heads...ect in the final price.

Its quite a bit of work and needs to be done properly, thats why it costs so much.

<small>[ March 20, 2004, 09:32 PM: Message edited by: curtklze ]</small>

[93-Spec-Edn]

Thanks Curt for all the useful info. Maybe thos should be added to the FAQ?

[Shades]

Being a machinist... I have to agree with Curt!

[tatsu]

Thanks a LOT Curt, for all of the info. The reason I'm thinking head gaskets is that our coolant is BLACK, and goes back to being black about two days after getting the coolant flushed.

The listing of other parts to replace is EXACTLY what I was looking for. I was planning to do the timing belt at the same time already, but might not have thought of the other stuff...

My thoughts exactly as well on having to do all of the same work to a ZE before swapping it in anyway, hence that NOT being an option - we're trying to spend LESS money here, Taras!

Luckily for me, my wife's uncle is a machinist, so he might be able to do that work for us, and save us a couple of bucks. If not, does anyone have a suggestion for someone local? Abbotsford area preferred, but anywhere in the Lower Mainland is OK.

Thanks again!

[tatsu]

I might as well check all of the HLA's as well while I have the heads off anyway. No doubt if coolant has been getting in the oil, one or more of them might be toast as well...

[curtklze]

If I remember corectly alot of japanese car came with a browish colour coolant, not green.

Black coolant dont sound right, but I cant say I have seen it turn from green to black.

I have seen it turn light brown "chocolate milk" its sound weird but it looks EXACLTY like a chocolate milk shake.

I have also seen it turn into straberry milk shake, this happens with automatic cars, when the trans coolerinside the rad leaks tranny fluid into the cooling system.

If you have an automatic and the fluid has never been change it may be black as night.

but I cant say for sure why your coolant would be turning black. maybe brown, but not black.


yes it would be nice is someone would add this to the FAQ section but they probably wont then I will have to get mad at someone that asks the same question in 2 weeks, and again in 4 weeks and again and again ect...

[tatsu]

Yeah, it is definitely black. When idling the car in the garage for ten minutes, a small bit of moisture pooled under the exhaust tips, with black oily-looking stuff floating in it.

One other suggestion that I have had is that perhaps the coolant is incompatible with all of the aluminum in the system, and the black material is "colloid" (not sure if that is the correct term) from corrosion.

What I might do, now that it is unlikely to drop below freezing for a while, is get the coolant flushed and replaced with straight water to see if it occurs again.

Strange thing is, if it is a head gasket problem, the coolant level doesn't drop at all. We do have to add a litre of oil every now and then, but that's about it for oil consumption (I.E. it's not a dramatic amount of oil consumption). The factory service manual (what parts I have of it) has a procedure for compression testing to determine whether oil consumption is due to head gaskets, rings/piston wear, or oil pump leaks. Maybe I'll try that first as well...

Off to Canadian Tire!

[tatsu]

Okay, here's the deal: the black coolant is from corrosion due to the coolant having turned acidic due to electrolysis. Must be the crap coolant they put in the car at Mr. Lube - we've had it flushed twice, and the black coolant returned soon after.

SO, we're getting it flushed and refilled at a cooling system specialist and replacing the thermostat at the same time for a grand total of less than $100 - much better than close to $2,000 for the head gasket!

We still have to do the timing belt, though, and it looks like one of the valve cover gaskets is leaking, so I'll have to do those too.

Thanks again to everyone for all of their help!

[93-Spec-Edn]

Originally posted by JP:
Okay, here's the deal: the black coolant is from corrosion due to the coolant having turned acidic due to electrolysis. Must be the crap coolant they put in the car at Mr. Lube - we've had it flushed twice, and the black coolant returned soon after.

SO, we're getting it flushed and refilled at a cooling system specialist and replacing the thermostat at the same time for a grand total of less than $100 - much better than close to $2,000 for the head gasket!

We still have to do the timing belt, though, and it looks like one of the valve cover gaskets is leaking, so I'll have to do those too.

Thanks again to everyone for all of their help!

I read quite a while back of someone having crap coolant in their mx-3 and it turned black. If the front valve cobver gasket needs replacing do it yourself. It's easy. I did it 2 weeks back and had no probs.

[curtklze]

your welcome