What spring rates to get with Ground Controls?
What spring rates to get with Ground Controls?
Gonna order a set soon. Mostly interested in good racetrack performance, but want acceptable city ride as well. Hoping to raise to near stock height for city and just lower for track days.
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Yoda
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I starting point to look at is this thread
http://www.mx-3.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.ph ... 64&start=0
http://www.mx-3.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.ph ... 64&start=0
275 f and 500 r seems like quite a bit of difference. Wouldn't that make the car fairly oversteery and nervous?
I imagined it being more like 300 f and 400 r for a balanced ride that's not overly sensitive.
I really have no point of reference when it comes to spring rates. Only springs I've had on my car are H&Rs. What's the rate on those? Because they felt too soft on the track, but they're pretty stiff for the street. So I was hoping someone with custom spring rates and track experience could tell me what's appropriate for my purpose.
Now as I understand with coil-overs and progressive springs, even though the spring rate is what it is, if I raise the car the ride will be softer, because there's less preload, and if I lower, the preload is increased and it's stiffer. Right? So even if I go with stiffer springs than what I got right now, rasing the car will make the ride acceptable for daily driving. Or am I smoking crack here?
BTW, is this true about the GC?
"Ground Control, the pioneer in sleeve design technology' utilizes aluminum body sleeve with Eibach race springs. The base of the spring is supported with a single rotational plate with an Allen screw-locking device. What's wrong with this design you ask? Like all 'sleeve type' coilovers, there is good chance for the sleeve to rotate and thus make the spring slip. This can happen to the enthusiast drivers who like to push the car to the limit. The other thing that worries me is the Allen screw-locking device. A screw that small is given the duties to hold the tension and twist that are generated by the car when an enthusiast drives it."
From http://ezinearticles.com/?Coilover-Susp ... s&id=12461
Makes me feel kind of sketchy, because I really push my car on the track.
I imagined it being more like 300 f and 400 r for a balanced ride that's not overly sensitive.
I really have no point of reference when it comes to spring rates. Only springs I've had on my car are H&Rs. What's the rate on those? Because they felt too soft on the track, but they're pretty stiff for the street. So I was hoping someone with custom spring rates and track experience could tell me what's appropriate for my purpose.
Now as I understand with coil-overs and progressive springs, even though the spring rate is what it is, if I raise the car the ride will be softer, because there's less preload, and if I lower, the preload is increased and it's stiffer. Right? So even if I go with stiffer springs than what I got right now, rasing the car will make the ride acceptable for daily driving. Or am I smoking crack here?
BTW, is this true about the GC?
"Ground Control, the pioneer in sleeve design technology' utilizes aluminum body sleeve with Eibach race springs. The base of the spring is supported with a single rotational plate with an Allen screw-locking device. What's wrong with this design you ask? Like all 'sleeve type' coilovers, there is good chance for the sleeve to rotate and thus make the spring slip. This can happen to the enthusiast drivers who like to push the car to the limit. The other thing that worries me is the Allen screw-locking device. A screw that small is given the duties to hold the tension and twist that are generated by the car when an enthusiast drives it."
From http://ezinearticles.com/?Coilover-Susp ... s&id=12461
Makes me feel kind of sketchy, because I really push my car on the track.
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Yoda
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Actually you will be surprised that there is still a bit of understeer with this combination of springs even with a 24mm rear anti-roll bar. You may actually want to go a little softer in the front and/ or disconnect the front anti-roll bar to get a more neutral handling without the rear end bounding around. As you have probably noted is that I have custom struts on my car. With my coil-over set-up I can only lower the car a max of .75-1" from stock height. This was done on purpose to achieve cornering force without creating counter-productive bumpsteer from lowering the car that everyone thinks is an increase in handling when in reality it is just an semi controlled hop. Comfort wise most people that have been in my car especially the rear seat don't even notice or even find it more comforable than the stock or aftermarket progressive springs just because they don't get sea sick over the small bumps that barely compress the springs.
This set up is a very common road course & Auto-X setup for the BG, BH/BA & BJ and GE based Mazda models. The ride is a little more stable with less oscilation that with progressive springs. The problem with your H&R (Eibach, etc are the same) is that the progressive spring rate is good for comfort but the comfort coils give a little delays in handling response because the softer comfort coils have to compress and bind before the stiffer performance coils can work. This means you are already having the weight of the car shifting from one side to the other causing a loss of cornering performance. Progressive rate "performance" lowering springs are really just a big compromise. The performance coils need to be stiffer that stock but the comfort coils have to be stiff enough to maintain a minmal amount of spring tension between the upper and lower seats to keep the in place and compress when fully extended, but soft enough to compress when the weight of the car in on the springs to allow the car to drop to there advertived height.
The issue of twisting you mention has more to do with people using a coil over set up to do something it was never intended to do and that is drop the car into into the weeds them raise it back up to a driveable heightfor the "visual" handling not physical handling performance. The thing you see often is the springs are set up with no preload to achieve a lower ground height so the spring bounce free at full suspension travel creating the problems and damage you have mention. The true function of coil overs is for spring rate and height interchangeablity and more importantly the balance out the corner weights of each wheel for the given track conditions. For example raising the front left about 1" transfers more weight to the rear right. To achieve the best possible handling from any of the 323 based car including the MX-3 I keep the front at/ or near the stock height lower the left rear about 3/4" and drop the right rear about 1". to fine tune it you may have to raise the front left slightly to balance out the weight of the car over the right rear wheel. Doing this will give you near 55/45 weight distibution from to rear. This on it own with do amazing thing to your handling without even touching the spring rates.
This set up is a very common road course & Auto-X setup for the BG, BH/BA & BJ and GE based Mazda models. The ride is a little more stable with less oscilation that with progressive springs. The problem with your H&R (Eibach, etc are the same) is that the progressive spring rate is good for comfort but the comfort coils give a little delays in handling response because the softer comfort coils have to compress and bind before the stiffer performance coils can work. This means you are already having the weight of the car shifting from one side to the other causing a loss of cornering performance. Progressive rate "performance" lowering springs are really just a big compromise. The performance coils need to be stiffer that stock but the comfort coils have to be stiff enough to maintain a minmal amount of spring tension between the upper and lower seats to keep the in place and compress when fully extended, but soft enough to compress when the weight of the car in on the springs to allow the car to drop to there advertived height.
The issue of twisting you mention has more to do with people using a coil over set up to do something it was never intended to do and that is drop the car into into the weeds them raise it back up to a driveable heightfor the "visual" handling not physical handling performance. The thing you see often is the springs are set up with no preload to achieve a lower ground height so the spring bounce free at full suspension travel creating the problems and damage you have mention. The true function of coil overs is for spring rate and height interchangeablity and more importantly the balance out the corner weights of each wheel for the given track conditions. For example raising the front left about 1" transfers more weight to the rear right. To achieve the best possible handling from any of the 323 based car including the MX-3 I keep the front at/ or near the stock height lower the left rear about 3/4" and drop the right rear about 1". to fine tune it you may have to raise the front left slightly to balance out the weight of the car over the right rear wheel. Doing this will give you near 55/45 weight distibution from to rear. This on it own with do amazing thing to your handling without even touching the spring rates.
Alright man, that's awesome info right there. Thanks. This gives me something to work with.
I don't think GC's Eibach springs come in linear form though, so I'll have to settle for progressive and deal with the delay if I get GC sleeves, which seems to be my only viable option at the time. Should be alright if I get them stiff enough.
I don't think GC's Eibach springs come in linear form though, so I'll have to settle for progressive and deal with the delay if I get GC sleeves, which seems to be my only viable option at the time. Should be alright if I get them stiff enough.
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PATDIESEL
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I am almost certain that GCs are linear springs... The Eibach lowering springs are progressive.
ZE -strait neck,headers,2.5 exhaust,pheno spacers,lower cross member,GC coils,MS struts,Brembo slotted rotors,filled MS mounts,SS brake/clutch lines, CAI,to rear bat reloc,Hella headlamps,Hella DE fogs 180WHP
Ok, I just got a word back from GC and yes, the springs are linear. Also as far as struts go, they don't recommend going over 350lbs on spring rates with Tokico HPs. I'll need adjustable struts.
Of course the aftermarket for our car is completely devoid of anything aside from the Koni reds, when it comes to a quality adjustable strut, and those bastards are expensive.
Is there anything else I can use?
[edit] Apparently they don't recommend Koni reds either.
Well, that's a bummer. I'm willing to shell out, but nobody is selling. Leaves me with a custom one-off option, then. Where do I go, who do I contact? Anyone familiar with Ellis Engineering and their quality?
Of course the aftermarket for our car is completely devoid of anything aside from the Koni reds, when it comes to a quality adjustable strut, and those bastards are expensive.
Is there anything else I can use?
[edit] Apparently they don't recommend Koni reds either.
Well, that's a bummer. I'm willing to shell out, but nobody is selling. Leaves me with a custom one-off option, then. Where do I go, who do I contact? Anyone familiar with Ellis Engineering and their quality?
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rekognize
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Re: What spring rates to get with Ground Controls?
Sorry to bump an old thread.
But is 150/180 spring rate for the GC okay for daily driving?
But is 150/180 spring rate for the GC okay for daily driving?