Bolt-in, Plug-and-Play Projector Light Kit

tatsu · Post by **tatsu** » July 15th, 2005, 9:22 pm

If there is enough interest, these will become a reality...

For more information, see my post in the New Product Development forum.

JP

atlantamx3 · Post by **atlantamx3** » July 15th, 2005, 10:19 pm

WHY EVEN POST ANOTHER ONE OF THESE??!!!

EVERYONE would buy one if the price is right- and that has been made evident MANY times over the years on this forum.

There are Lots of topics on Projector lights- with many of them several pages long. All of them are "gauging interest" and gets tons of replies with enthusiastic people wanting to buy them.

In the end- the person organizing it or "gauging interest" always says that the company says nevermind.

IF YOU BUILD IT- IT WILL BE BOUGHT.

Simple search with the search function for "Projector lights" and you will find your interest level you are looking for without having everyone reply AGAIN.

And please dont double post.

Jeff K · Post by **Jeff K** » July 15th, 2005, 10:46 pm

yeah i would fersure buy them as long as its not to much let me know if you ever get them i'll but them in a heart beat

tatsu · Post by **tatsu** » July 16th, 2005, 12:02 am

Let me clarify - this is not "some company" who "might" produce these if there is enough interest. I am the one who will be producing these, and I am the one who will be spending MY MONEY to produce these.

As for "double-posting", I decided that the most appropriate place to post the details is in "New Product Development", but the most likely place to catch peoples' interest in this product would be in this forum. That is why the detailed info is in the other forum, and a link to that post is in this one.

As for "IF YOU BUILD IT - IT WILL BE BOUGHT" - that's all well and good, but if you want to put up your ten grand for the initial costs for the housings alone before you can even produce them, be my guest. I don't have that money to burn, so I am being more cautious.

atlantamx3 · Post by **atlantamx3** » July 16th, 2005, 12:14 am

My post still applies.

Unless you already have the $$ an tooling equipment to make these- then dont even bother posting.

The interest is here- eveyone is just waiting on someone to actually make the damned things.

atlantamx3 · Post by **atlantamx3** » July 16th, 2005, 12:37 am

By the way... I read your other post- and good luck getting that many people to pay those prices.

People on here are cheap bastards and consider anything above $50 too expensive.

The guys in MOCA (Mainly Patrick [PATDIESEL on here] ) have already designed the housings for this project to fit two Hella 90mm Projectors.

It is a tight [read: VERY TIGHT] fit into the area of the the stock housing.

I am sure he would be willing to discuss the possibility of you maybe purchasing that design from him to make molds of. This will save you some production costs and design time.

There are MANY MANY pics of the design process of those headlights- but he will have to be the one to share that info with you.

Also a side note- TWO Hella 90mm projectors will NOT fit in the area of the MX-3 headlight without some cutting/modifying of the mounting points. But- you will figure that out soon enough I guess. Maybe that sounds confusing with my statement above it.... but the actuall lenses WILL fit, but the MOUNTING points will not.

jschrauwen · Post by **jschrauwen** » July 16th, 2005, 12:39 am

Jeff K wrote:yeah i would fersure buy them as long as its not to much let me know if you ever get them i'll but them in a heart beat

Perry, this is precisely the crux that's going to negatively affect this outstanding opportunity. Not to pick on you Jeff K but you will be amoung many who will say the same thing "if it's not too much". Here's where detailed knowledge and realistic understanding come into play. Price comparisons when applied correctly will clearly establish that these lights will be the best quality bang for the buck that's within realistic means (realistic cost).

After reading Tatsu's thread one will clearly see that what the buyer will get is a brand new light system that has been thoroughly R&D'd, will produce state of the art illumination, have the verastility for future upgrades and has the flexibility for individuals to finish the project to his or her's personal preference. For those that are more concerned with better illumination...it's got it, for those that want to esthetically mod the car with a different lighting system....it's got it. I can only see this venture as a win win situation. Perry, I'm surprised that you would not be more optimistic and supportive about the whole idea and plan. You're input and feedback wrt this venture whether you know it or not carries a lot of weight. It would behoove all of us to be supportive in any venture that seeks to improve the MX3 condition. We can't afford to continually adopt a jaded position and quash any potential headed our way.
For those that that are not the most conversant wrt lighting systems, I suggest a search in archived posts, which will reflect that the forcasted pricing is well within reason and is an accurate representation of R&D, material costs, mold fabrication, mass production, finishing, individual lighting units, wiring and ancilliaries. Has anyone priced what a new set of our lights cost to replace? Bearing that in mind this is deffinitely on target, I am hopefull that this BB will look to the positive in this venture and be a supportive factor in seeing that this project becomes reality.
Tatsu, I like where this is headed and I haven't got excited about projectors like this in some time.

tatsu · Post by **tatsu** » July 16th, 2005, 1:05 am

Perry - in answer to your points:

1. I know, they are expensive. That is why I need to get serious commitment from enough people before producing them. If you look at the $500 US price of the mass-produced Focus lights, which are for a car that in one year sold worldwide more than THIRTEEN TIMES THE ENTIRE LIFETIME PRODUCTION of MX-3's, you will begin to understand why these low-volume, basically custom made lights for the MX-3 will cost what they do.

2. These would not be going into the stock housings, or using any of the stock mounting hardware. The housings will be using the stock mounting POINTS.

3. All respect to the MOCA guys, especially Patrick, but unless the design is already done in AutoCAD or SolidWorks, ready to go to the machine shop to produce the moulds, it will not save me more than a few hundred dollars in development costs. Besides which, the design is not quite what I am looking for.

4. It is EXTREMELY tight, but yes, two 90mm headlight modules (one low beam, one high beam) with the adjustable mounts I will use do fit in the space occupied by the stock headlight plus mounting system. I did a VERY basic, ugly mock-up to confirm this before even contacting the company that will be producing the moulds.

John:

Thanks for the support!

atlantamx3 · Post by **atlantamx3** » July 16th, 2005, 1:11 am

They may LOOK like they will fit- but trust me they do not. Not using the stock mounting points anyway. Some fender cutting or some frame cutting would be required.

tatsu · Post by **tatsu** » July 16th, 2005, 1:25 am

Respectfully, Perry - you are wrong.

They absolutely, 100% WILL fit with the adjusters I will be using. Okay, the back 1/2" of the low-beam housing sticks out rearward beyond the point where the stock mounting bracket ends (I.E. where your stock headlight adjusters are), but they do not require ANY cutting.

That is the benefit of using a housing and mounting system designed from the ground up, rather than adapting our stock housings and mounting brackets.

PATDIESEL · Post by **PATDIESEL** » July 16th, 2005, 1:25 am

Alright J and Tatsu, I'm kinda with Perry on this one. I also tried the same thing about 6 months ago and got alot of naysayers. "The price is too high" I had about 6 real interests and about 20 who said that if I come down on the price they'd buy some. His idea is a very close duplicate of mine except that I had a seperate "new" mounting system to bypass the "facia" and use the aiming and bulb access from the rear instead of a pain in the @#$ of taking a breakable piece off the front.
Tatsu, you'll find in the R+D that putting two 90mm is impossible without cutting, you can ask Taras as he also has alot of experience in 90mm MX projectors. Then you'll find that the cuts required will screw the stock mounting or make it very difficult. Taras found a way to keep the stock mounting, but aimablilty was compromised. A facia is going to make the lense fitment impossible without a newly designed lense. And to top it off, I'll be super suprised if you can have all that made and buy the lamps and assemble them for under 1000.00 a pair. I also don't want to be a naysayer, but I think he will find the R+D alot more than he bargained for. I spent over a year with another member trying to work out the bugs, but in the end the real answer was to make a new form of mounting so that the lamps can fit and the front is pretty, the lense will go back on and you have access to the aiming and lamp.

Perry was right however, I am willing to sell my mold as it is now collecting dust since I couldn't get enough buyers to be interested in all the hard work it would be to create 10 sets in my garage. I have about 50 pics of the process from design to finished product and all will reveal a great deal about the process. However, I'm not willing to divulge my info so that you can make "My" headlamp for others to buy without a serious commitment and some up front cash. If you are truely interested email me and we'll talk.
PS, my interior is paintable and I painted them black to show any imperfections (there were none was what I was trying to show) but black didn't photo very well.

Perry, quite being such a B-word on the forum, all you do is b----... Add some positive involvement...

PATDIESEL · Post by **PATDIESEL** » July 16th, 2005, 1:50 am

Oh, and if I may add a few other points. You may want to check out the new Hella 50mm lamps, they have worse lighting, but the low beam will be ALOT easier to fit. Also, you mention that you can fit a GTS cover for a clear lamp cover. You know that the GTS covers glue onto your stock cover, not replace it. Meaning that you'd have to very precisely cut the stock cover and then adhere the GTS cover to the stock one. Also you'd have a step in the cover since a GTS cover is meant to go over the stock one. You can use the lamp without a cover since the Hella are a sealed unit, but with out the lense the car looks fugly. The lense covers a good bit of rrom that if left out leaves huge gaps between the body and the headlight.

Also I wanted to say in Perry's defense: He is sceptical b/c he has seen that I tried to make a very good quality lamp at a fair price and had almost no luck with it. I hope that Tatsu has better luck than I did, but if I can't figure out a cheaper way and neither can Taras, then I doubt he will either. Best of luck to you though, the MX community will love you if you do. I think that the 1000.00 price tag is going to be your biggest problem. I think it is more than fair since Hella charges almost that for a set of housings and lamps for the Focus, but not enough MXers are ready for for real priced, real upgrades. 5 years ago there were enough members that had money and good sense, but we are too late for that now.

tatsu · Post by **tatsu** » July 16th, 2005, 2:09 am

Patrick - thanks for the feedback.

Actually, the GTS covers just clip on to the stock lights, and that is how they will mount to the new housings. The outer contour of the front piece will match that of the stock lens so that they can do just that.

As for the looks without the lenses - that is subjective. Personally, I'm with you, I prefer the look with the lens. But if you look at the feedback on this post about the so-called "Blue Shark", it seems a lot of people like the look without.

The problem with the 50mm units is price. Otherwise, I would consider them, but we both know that even with the relatively cheap H9 90mm units these are expensive enough to make it a tough sell already.

As I have said to Perry privately, I don't hold his comments against him. I understand his frustration and doubts - I have felt the same thing, as I am sure a lot of you have. That is why I have opted to pursue doing this myself, rather than wait for someone else to do it.

As to the price - believe me, I understand that will turn some folks off. But if enough people want far superior lighting, better looks and no hassles to install them, I will make them. I am just out to recover my costs and pay for a set for myself. As anyone who has done the research, like yourself and Taras, would know, the price reflects a VERY minimal profit margin (around 5%) over the cost of the lights, the relays, the wiring, the moulds and materials, so if I can sell 20, I have paid for my one set.

I hope that the MX-3 enthusiast community worldwide surprises us, and enough people step up so that we can produce these.

Taras · Post by **Taras** » July 16th, 2005, 3:22 am

I wish I was in a better mood right now to say a few supporting words. All I can say is this:
-You want good lights, prepare to pay for them
-$300 projector lights will only be available from China, if at all, and in a very crappy quality, so stop waiting.
-People that want good lights but not prepared to pay, go buy blue bulbs
-The idea of individually adjustable 90mm units in an MX-3 lights' shape design is great but hard to achieve due to space limitations. If you do it, let me know how. Even with minimum required three legs, still hard. Doable with fully modified adjuster legs.
-50mm = better and easier fit, but not available yet in North America. As far as I know the pricing was not released yet but should be similar to 90mm units.
-Want an easier cheaper design with full adjustability, stop remaking everything and use some what's available (hint-hint)
-Perry, you are so damn negative lately, get off Prozac.

[/rant off]

Chronicle-Rod · Post by **Chronicle-Rod** » July 16th, 2005, 4:05 am

I thought about it until I saw the price. It's crazy to think that people will pay that, more than their car is probably worth in many cases, for projectors - especially when a conversion to Civic lights will be cheaper, even at a body shop.

You can talk "low volume" and "bang for your buck" all you want - but the reality is that those prices are just unrealistic for the average MX3 owner, even the ones on this forum - who generally aren't the average owners.

I can think of a lot of other things that money would put on, under or in my car that would give me a lot more "bang for my buck" than these lights.

Not to rain too much on your parade, and if you can get people to go for it, more power to you, but I just can't see my way clear to doing it. Like I said, I did the Civic conversion, and I'm more than happy with the lighting performance AND what it cost me.