Bad head gasket or valve stem seals?

golantr · Post by **golantr** » July 5th, 2005, 3:32 pm

I'm looking to purchase a 1995 MX-3 GS (V6 1.8L) with 90,000 miles (150,000 km). There is a problem with the engine in that it produces a lot of white smoke. The mechanic at the dealer said that this is due to the valve stem seals which he will replace. What I'm concerned about is if it may not be due to bad valve stem seals, but a bad head gasket, or works a cracked head.

Does anybody have any experience w/ this kind of problem? Any advice would be greatly appreciated...

Tunes67 · Post by **Tunes67** » July 5th, 2005, 3:41 pm

White smoke is usually coolant burning in one or more cylinders. If there is a bluish tint to the smoke.. then I suppose that it could be valve seals. Is this thick white smoke or translucent puffs of white smoke? If its thick.. I agree with you.. most likely a blown head gasket or a cracked head. If they are going to replace the valve seals.. they will correct the head gasket issue at the same time. Have them do the work and then get a compression test done on the engine. Better yet.. get a compression test done and then have them do the work and then get another compression test done afterwards to compare the difference. Dont give them any cash until they do the work and you can check the results. Also.. before they do anything... check the oil and coolant to make sure you dont have a milkshake going on in either the engine or the radiator. If the engine is milkshaked.. its toast and not worth working on. Best of luck.

Tunes67

golantr · Post by **golantr** » July 5th, 2005, 3:49 pm

At idle the smoke is not very visible. But when the engine is revved thick white smoke comes out.

I was wondering if since they are going to do the work on the valve stem seals if that would entail removing the head (I don't think it does) but I'm going tommorow to take a look at the work they are doing. I don't want to be charged much more for the head gasket to be replaced if that is the case. I just won't purchase the car if it is that bad.

How long after running the engine will I notice a "milkshake" in the engine or the coolant?

Tunes67 · Post by **Tunes67** » July 5th, 2005, 4:02 pm

If the headgasket is blown.. its kind of a crap shoot how they blow.. there are several combinations of issues that result from a blown head gasket.

1) Coolant or oil into the combustion chamber
2) Coolant into oil passages
3) Oil into coolant passages

Or any combination of those 3 can occur.

If water (coolant) is getting into the engines oil passages.. you wouldnt even need to run the engine for more than a couple of minutes before milkshaking would begin. Though this also depends on the amount of coolant that is getting into the oil. If coolant or milkshaked oil and coolant gets into your main bearings.. toast.. complete disassembly & cleaning is needed.

At idle the smoke is not very visible. But when the engine is revved thick white smoke comes out.

This would indicate to me either blown head gasket or cracked head. As you increase your RPMS.. the pressure in the cooling system will force coolant through any crack in the gasket or head.

As for them doing the valve seals.. there is a trick to replacing them without removing the head.. but on a V6.. it would be hell to replace the ones on the back side of the engine near the firewall without removing the head. So my guess is they intend to remove the heads to do the valve seals. And at the same time.. they would replace the head gasket(s).

Also.. it may very well be a head gasket problem.. a lot of used car dealerships have a reputation of understating a cars problems especially if they intend to fix them before selling them. What sounds worse to a potential customer? Yeah the valve seals are worn out.. or.. The previous owner thrashed it and blew the head gasket

Blowing the head gasket is no big deal as long as coolant doesnt get into the oil (or significant amounts of coolant)

Hope this helps.

Tunes67

golantr · Post by **golantr** » July 5th, 2005, 4:30 pm

Thanks so much, you've been very very helpful. I felt a lot of trepidation about this whole situation due to the possibility of a bad head gasket. I didn't know much about these engines. I'll check all of that out tomorrow and I'll post back here.

Thanks again

hgallegos915 · Post by **hgallegos915** » July 5th, 2005, 5:34 pm

both bad head gasket bad valve seals...not a good engine...dont pay to much for that car. It wont last long. Dealers aleays use that excuse to sell beater cars. If its chedap get it and get a replacement engine. Even if he does fix it...most likely the cams are worn and alot of oil has been getting into the cylinders this messing with the rings.. as far as coolant you would be able to tell right away if its vapor smoke..but usually what everyopne means by white smoke is sorta bluesh and it smells like burn oil.

bigtime · Post by **bigtime** » July 6th, 2005, 2:06 am

get it cheap if the rest of the car is in good nick...
I know a good engine u could put under it afterwards

golantr · Post by **golantr** » July 6th, 2005, 10:34 am

I'm getting the car for very cheap, it's fully loaded, power doors, windows, sunroof, ac, cruise control, comes w/ alarm system, the body is perfect, the paint is perfect, AND it has cup holders

...the only problem is the engine, which will be repaired, and they are offering me a 6 month warranty on it as well....i'm heading there right now.

golantr · Post by **golantr** » July 6th, 2005, 12:04 pm

I just came back from the dealer. I took another look at everything, there is no oil in the coolant and the engine oil doesn't milkshake or anything like that...and what I thought to be white smoke, upon closer inspection, turned out to be blue smoke....i read that that may be oil entering the cylinder i.e. it could be bad valve stem seals as he said...any thoughts?

mxmaz · Post by **mxmaz** » July 6th, 2005, 12:13 pm

Probably bad valve stem seals or piston rings or both. Does it only smoke upon start-up after it has been sitting a while or does it smoke while driving it as well?

Instead of having the dealer fix the engine, take the cost to fix the engine off the price they want for the car, then pick up a klde from a probe, 626, or mx6. That engine is bolt on and will make for a pretty quick car.

BornSticky · Post by **BornSticky** » July 6th, 2005, 12:27 pm

If it is blueish smoke it could also be cracked engine rings as well personally from experience put the money u would spend in fixing it into an engine that already works cause most likely you're just gonna put more and more into it.
Or replace the whole engine....

Tunes67 · Post by **Tunes67** » July 6th, 2005, 12:30 pm

I agree with mxmaz.. see if you can get them to knock down the price of the car and swap out the engine. If its shooting blue smoke when you rev it.. most likely its the rings.. still possible its the valve seals and or valve guides.. but usually oil gets past those under high vacuum situations.. Like when you shift gears.. When you push in the clutch.. the engine RPMs drop.. the engine is trying to suck in more air and fuel.. if your valve seals or valve guides are shot.. the vacuum of the engine will suck oil past them and into the cylinders and thats where you get the blue smoke. If its shooting blue smoke while under throttle.. thats usually blowby, oil getting past the rings.

What I would do in your shoes... assuming the rest of the car is in nice condition.. is find a KLDE engine like Mxmaz suggested. They are a dime o dozen and you should be able to find a decent one for a decent price.. Its not that much more work to swap engines as it would be to do the valve seals. Removing the heads & dissassembling the valve train to replace the seals and then reassembling & reinstalling the heads would be just about as time consuming as doing the engine swap. Sooo.. Buy the car, tell them you will buy the engine and have it delivered to them.. have them do the engine swap and get the 6 month warranty on the rest of the car.. tell them you will exclude the engine from the warranty they offered (you should be given a warranty of some sort on the new engine from the place you bought it anyway). Best of luck man.

Tunes67

golantr · Post by **golantr** » July 6th, 2005, 5:10 pm

Will I need a new ECU or a new transmission w/ a different engine?

Tunes67 · Post by **Tunes67** » July 6th, 2005, 5:31 pm

Wouldnt need to replace the transmission for sure. The ECU.. probably. But they are a dime o dozen and you would still be able to drive the car most likely with the K8 ECU in it. Just wouldnt have optimal performance. There are other folks here that would be able to tell you better about how the ECU's match up with what V6. Cheers

Tunes67

mxmaz · Post by **mxmaz** » July 6th, 2005, 10:38 pm

I believe this ecu will work
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayI ... ename=WD9V

And you need this vaf
http://www.mx6.com/forums/showthread.ph ... hlight=vaf

That is an old thread for the vaf but maybe he still has it. Offer him $50 cdn. for it cause that is what they usually go for