If you live in Ontario you probably already know about the problems within the insurance industry. Namely extremely high rates and open discrimination practices. I'm considering filing a lawsuit against the insurance idustries largest players along with the government that is supposed to regulate them. Attatched is the e-mails that have been going between the Financial Services Commission of Ontario (FSCO) and myself. Let me know if I have your support and feel free to add input. Thanks,
Seth Egerton
ATTENTION ALL ONTARIO RESIDENTS
(From me)
To whom it may concern,
I am a 21 year old male with a G class license who is currently insured
under the facility association. I have had three minor traffic tickets in
the past three years and one at fault accident four years ago.
I recently received my renewal notice in the mail from my current insurance
provider. It was over $3700 for six months. This has been the status quo
since I first signed on with them last year. I decided that I would call
around to as many insurance brokers and agents that I could to try to get a
lower quote. After being turned away by many, and receiving many similar
quotes to what I already pay, I had a call back from a broker that I left my
number with. The broker took down all of my important information and told
me he would call me back the next day with a quote.
The next day he called back just as he said he would. He then gave me a
quote for about $2200 for a six month period. I was very content with that
and left him with my Ontario drivers license number in order to go through
with the offer. The next day I received a call from the same broker. He
told me that he made a mistake with my quote. (I immediately thought that
he had left a ticket out or something) When I asked what the mistake was he
told me that he had entered me in as a female instead of a male. He then
told me it was going to be $1000 dollars more to insure me!
How can it be possible that everything being equal, a male has to pay
substantially more for the same policy? This is just blatant
discrimination! Theres no way I can help being a male. I was born that way
How is it that an insurance company can base such a large difference on
gender alone? I suppose they will be basing rates on future policies by
race or some other difference that people are born with and cannot change.
A driving record, type of vehicle, use of vehicle and even age are all
appropriate variables for companies to base their rates on. But I just don
t understand how gender can possibly be a variable. If this type of
discrimination took place in the workplace there would be serious
consequences. Men and women have to be treated equally by law. How can
this be ignored in the insurance industry.
Absolutely every person I have talked to about this matter has been outraged
Any information you could provide to me that pertains to this matter would
be much appreciated.
To whom it may concern,
I am a 21 year old male with a G class license who is currently insured
under the facility association. I have had three minor traffic tickets in
the past three years and one at fault accident four years ago.
I recently received my renewal notice in the mail from my current insurance
provider. It was over $3700 for six months. This has been the status quo
since I first signed on with them last year. I decided that I would call
around to as many insurance brokers and agents that I could to try to get a
lower quote. After being turned away by many, and receiving many similar
quotes to what I already pay, I had a call back from a broker that I left my
number with. The broker took down all of my important information and told
me he would call me back the next day with a quote.
The next day he called back just as he said he would. He then gave me a
quote for about $2200 for a six month period. I was very content with that
and left him with my Ontario drivers license number in order to go through
with the offer. The next day I received a call from the same broker. He
told me that he made a mistake with my quote. (I immediately thought that
he had left a ticket out or something) When I asked what the mistake was he
told me that he had entered me in as a female instead of a male. He then
told me it was going to be $1000 dollars more to insure me!
How can it be possible that everything being equal, a male has to pay
substantially more for the same policy? This is just blatant
discrimination! Theres no way I can help being a male. I was born that way
How is it that an insurance company can base such a large difference on
gender alone? I suppose they will be basing rates on future policies by
race or some other difference that people are born with and cannot change.
A driving record, type of vehicle, use of vehicle and even age are all
appropriate variables for companies to base their rates on. But I just don
t understand how gender can possibly be a variable. If this type of
discrimination took place in the workplace there would be serious
consequences. Men and women have to be treated equally by law. How can
this be ignored in the insurance industry.
Absolutely every person I have talked to about this matter has been outraged
Any information you could provide to me that pertains to this matter would
be much appreciated.
Last edited by mazdubber on February 10th, 2005, 8:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
(From the FSCO)
Thank you for your inqury.
Different jurisdictions allow different rating variables for assessing risk
for auto insurance. In Ontario, some variables include age, sex, whether
one is married or single, where one lives, and the type of vehicle they
drive.
Individual insurers are required to file their rates and underwriting rules
with the Rates and Classifications branch of this Commission.
Section 412 (6) of the Insurance Act indicates that an underwriting rule
will not be approved unless:
(a) the proposed risk classification system or rates are not just and
reasonable in the circumstances;
(b) the proposed risk classification system is not reasonably predictive
of risk or does not distinguish fairly between risks; or
(c) the proposed rates would impair the solvency of the applicant or are
excessive in relation to the financial circumstances of the insurer. 1997,
c. 28, s. 126 (2).
In addition, our website has guidelines for insurers for filing their rates
and underwriting rules. This can be found at:
http://www.fsco.gov.on.ca/FSCO_UW_MainEngine
nsf/cd0bbbe7b8237e1e85256482005b6998/3e184fe353332e4f85256aca0068f603?OpenDoc
ment
On a side note, aside from the Facility Association, there are four
alternative auto insurers that you may or may not qualify for. They are:
Perth Insurance: 800-265-9996
Pembridge 1-877-216-6975
Echelon 1-800-324-3566
Kingsway 1-800-265-5458
You can contact them and ask for a broker/agent in your area to find out
further if they can quote you for coverage.
Thank you for your inqury.
Different jurisdictions allow different rating variables for assessing risk
for auto insurance. In Ontario, some variables include age, sex, whether
one is married or single, where one lives, and the type of vehicle they
drive.
Individual insurers are required to file their rates and underwriting rules
with the Rates and Classifications branch of this Commission.
Section 412 (6) of the Insurance Act indicates that an underwriting rule
will not be approved unless:
(a) the proposed risk classification system or rates are not just and
reasonable in the circumstances;
(b) the proposed risk classification system is not reasonably predictive
of risk or does not distinguish fairly between risks; or
(c) the proposed rates would impair the solvency of the applicant or are
excessive in relation to the financial circumstances of the insurer. 1997,
c. 28, s. 126 (2).
In addition, our website has guidelines for insurers for filing their rates
and underwriting rules. This can be found at:
http://www.fsco.gov.on.ca/FSCO_UW_MainEngine
nsf/cd0bbbe7b8237e1e85256482005b6998/3e184fe353332e4f85256aca0068f603?OpenDoc
ment
On a side note, aside from the Facility Association, there are four
alternative auto insurers that you may or may not qualify for. They are:
Perth Insurance: 800-265-9996
Pembridge 1-877-216-6975
Echelon 1-800-324-3566
Kingsway 1-800-265-5458
You can contact them and ask for a broker/agent in your area to find out
further if they can quote you for coverage.
Last edited by mazdubber on February 10th, 2005, 8:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
(From me again)
Why are insurance companies allowed to discriminate against an entire
gender? I'm sure If there was racial discrimination within the insurance
industry it would not be tolerated! Or would it? Why should I have to pay
50% more for insurance that is required by law simply because I have
different private parts? Maybe the government should subsidize the extra
money that I have to pay because I'm male.
How did your Commission approve such a drastic rate difference between
genders? Are you suggesting that the your Commission is going along with
this discrimination? If so could you please tell me what basis you could
have possibly had to approve such a large difference?
This is very frustrating and I am considering filing a lawsuit against all
involved in this problem within the insurance industry and government.
Why are insurance companies allowed to discriminate against an entire
gender? I'm sure If there was racial discrimination within the insurance
industry it would not be tolerated! Or would it? Why should I have to pay
50% more for insurance that is required by law simply because I have
different private parts? Maybe the government should subsidize the extra
money that I have to pay because I'm male.
How did your Commission approve such a drastic rate difference between
genders? Are you suggesting that the your Commission is going along with
this discrimination? If so could you please tell me what basis you could
have possibly had to approve such a large difference?
This is very frustrating and I am considering filing a lawsuit against all
involved in this problem within the insurance industry and government.
Last edited by mazdubber on February 10th, 2005, 8:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
(From the FSCO again)
Thank you for your follow up inquiry.
In Ontario, automobile insurers are required to file their underwriting rules and risk classification systems for approval with the Financial Services Commission of Ontario (FSCO). FSCO reviews a company's underwriting rules to ensure that they are not arbitrary or bear little or no relationship to the potential risk to be assumed and that they comply with the statutory standards under the Insurance Act. FSCO also reviews a company's risk classification system to determine if it is reasonably predictive of risk, distinguishes fairly between risks, and if the premium rates to be charged are reasonable in relation to the financial circumstances of the company.
Individuals with common characteristics (such as under age 25 drivers), are grouped together and their claim experience is used to determine the rates to be charged to that group. Each group should be large enough to have sufficient data to be able to generate a rate that would cover the cost of any future claims for the members of the group. This would eliminate any subsidization by other groups. However, sometimes this would result in significant rate changes or lack of rate stability for a particular group. Therefore, currently, there exists some evening out of the rates across groups to maintain rate stability from period to period.
Automobile insurance premium rates are determined by insurance companies based on a set of underwriting rules and classification systems used by each company. Every insurance company has underwriting rules and classification systems that will reflect the unique claims and policy experience of the policyholders that are insured by that company.
While there are variations amongst insurers as to the type of risks and insurance premiums they will charge, all companies use a number of common or base risk variables. For example, a classification plan will usually take into account where the vehicle is driven, the type and age of vehicle driven and the number of kilometers driven annually.
Other factors affecting rates include the individual's driving record (for example, the length of time that an individual has been licensed, an individual's age, the number of at-fault accidents within the last six years and the number of driving convictions within the last three years), deductibles, discounts and the cost of all claims paid out by the insurance company. Each of these variables is weighted and combined in order to determine an individual's classification.
Insurance is a pooling concept and every individual is a member of the company's risk pool. The insurance company charges premiums based on the claims experience of the policyholders in the pool. The cost of all claims paid out will be factored into its rate structure. As a result, all policyholders share the risk and to some extent the cost of these losses. Of course, an individual with a clean driving record who is insuring an older vehicle will generally see the least impact from a rate increase, in comparison to a driver with a poor driving history and a newer vehicle.
The idea that premiums for yound male drivers be distributed among all drivers, would not be reflective of the insurance risk for this group. Also, it would lead to the unfair situation of other groups paying higher premiums and subsidizing the cost of insurance for young male drivers.
However, there are ways for young drivers to reduce the premiums that they are paying. For example, premiums can be reduced by increasing the deductible for the direct compensation property damage coverage of the insurance policy or the optional physical damage coverages such as collision and comprehensive coverages. For new drivers, taking a driver training course will also impact the premiums they are payings, as many insurers offer premium discounts upon completion of accredited courses. I would recommend discussing these options with an insurance broker or agent who can provide you with further information.
If you still are of the view that this agency, FSCO, has acted unfairly, you may also contact the Ombudsman of Ontario about
your concerns. They may be reached at: 1-800-263-1830
Thank you for your follow up inquiry.
In Ontario, automobile insurers are required to file their underwriting rules and risk classification systems for approval with the Financial Services Commission of Ontario (FSCO). FSCO reviews a company's underwriting rules to ensure that they are not arbitrary or bear little or no relationship to the potential risk to be assumed and that they comply with the statutory standards under the Insurance Act. FSCO also reviews a company's risk classification system to determine if it is reasonably predictive of risk, distinguishes fairly between risks, and if the premium rates to be charged are reasonable in relation to the financial circumstances of the company.
Individuals with common characteristics (such as under age 25 drivers), are grouped together and their claim experience is used to determine the rates to be charged to that group. Each group should be large enough to have sufficient data to be able to generate a rate that would cover the cost of any future claims for the members of the group. This would eliminate any subsidization by other groups. However, sometimes this would result in significant rate changes or lack of rate stability for a particular group. Therefore, currently, there exists some evening out of the rates across groups to maintain rate stability from period to period.
Automobile insurance premium rates are determined by insurance companies based on a set of underwriting rules and classification systems used by each company. Every insurance company has underwriting rules and classification systems that will reflect the unique claims and policy experience of the policyholders that are insured by that company.
While there are variations amongst insurers as to the type of risks and insurance premiums they will charge, all companies use a number of common or base risk variables. For example, a classification plan will usually take into account where the vehicle is driven, the type and age of vehicle driven and the number of kilometers driven annually.
Other factors affecting rates include the individual's driving record (for example, the length of time that an individual has been licensed, an individual's age, the number of at-fault accidents within the last six years and the number of driving convictions within the last three years), deductibles, discounts and the cost of all claims paid out by the insurance company. Each of these variables is weighted and combined in order to determine an individual's classification.
Insurance is a pooling concept and every individual is a member of the company's risk pool. The insurance company charges premiums based on the claims experience of the policyholders in the pool. The cost of all claims paid out will be factored into its rate structure. As a result, all policyholders share the risk and to some extent the cost of these losses. Of course, an individual with a clean driving record who is insuring an older vehicle will generally see the least impact from a rate increase, in comparison to a driver with a poor driving history and a newer vehicle.
The idea that premiums for yound male drivers be distributed among all drivers, would not be reflective of the insurance risk for this group. Also, it would lead to the unfair situation of other groups paying higher premiums and subsidizing the cost of insurance for young male drivers.
However, there are ways for young drivers to reduce the premiums that they are paying. For example, premiums can be reduced by increasing the deductible for the direct compensation property damage coverage of the insurance policy or the optional physical damage coverages such as collision and comprehensive coverages. For new drivers, taking a driver training course will also impact the premiums they are payings, as many insurers offer premium discounts upon completion of accredited courses. I would recommend discussing these options with an insurance broker or agent who can provide you with further information.
If you still are of the view that this agency, FSCO, has acted unfairly, you may also contact the Ombudsman of Ontario about
your concerns. They may be reached at: 1-800-263-1830
-
fry_81
- Regular Member
- Posts: 1898
- Joined: April 22nd, 2004, 2:01 am
- Location: Barrie, Ontario, Canada
- Contact:
ya i know what you mean about discrimination because of your sex. that really frustrates me how we pay in some cases more than double the amount of the opposite sex. ok sure they do have satistics showing that male drivers are in more accidents, speeding, etc etc. but what i dont understand is, why we are not at least given 1 single chance at a low rate and be treated as equals, and if we screw up ok then raise our premiums that at least makes somewhat sense. but then again im not well educated on the whole auto insurance topic so i dont know whats going on. really angers me though.
1994 5spd GS Parts Car For Sale 800obo. e-mail for details. fry_81@hotmail.com
Insurance is all about risks. If you are to high of a risk they will not unsure you(ex: to many tickets, accidents, violations....) Statistics show that males are more likely to get a ticket or be in an accident. Everything is based off statistics. Does it suck, yes. I know exactly what you mean. If you go to court you will not win, its just the way it is. Its not in ontario its everywhere.
You are right about the whole 'risk' thing. However, in Canada discrimination is illegal. There is supposed to be equal rights for all genders, race's, etc. It's in the Charter of Rights and Freedoms. Taking an entire gender as a higher risk and charging a substantial amount more for coverage IS discrimination. It is just the same as if they flagged all asians as a higher risk. You don't see that on an insurance quote questionnare. Nobody has fought this discrimination. Being that this is the age of equal rights, it's time for something to be done about this.mx3TT wrote:Insurance is all about risks. If you are to high of a risk they will not unsure you(ex: to many tickets, accidents, violations....) Statistics show that males are more likely to get a ticket or be in an accident. Everything is based off statistics. Does it suck, yes. I know exactly what you mean. If you go to court you will not win, its just the way it is. Its not in ontario its everywhere.
Well you can look at it both ways though. The insurance company is basing there quotes off of your personal risks. You can say that they are discriminating against all males, or you can see that they are going by statistics. Its not discrimination, its fact. I hate to say it but its true. I honestly dont think its worth it unless you can find a loop hole to catch them on.
Well, if you read the first e-mail i sent, you'll see why how I know they are discriminating. My original quote for $4400/year was because he accidentally put me down as a female. The ONLY thing that he changed was the gender. All of the tickets were on the original quote as well. A quick change from female to male and the price magically changes to $6200/year.mx3TT wrote:Well you can look at it both ways though. The insurance company is basing there quotes off of your personal risks. You can say that they are discriminating against all males, or you can see that they are going by statistics. Its not discrimination, its fact. I hate to say it but its true. I honestly dont think its worth it unless you can find a loop hole to catch them on.
Just for the record im not trying to argue with you or anything about this im just making you think before you go into this whole thing. Like i said before that could be looked at both ways still. Still stats still facts and nothing changes. Its based on that. Just ask around and lets see what other people think. Again im not trying to argue. 
This is a long time in the making. My whole point is that even though statistics may say that male's are riskier drivers than females, they shouldn't be born into higher rates. Gender is not something that a person can control. Driving record and stuff like that is controllable. Even age is related to experience, so that's acceptable. I don't mind a little healthy argument.mx3TT wrote:Just for the record im not trying to argue with you or anything about this im just making you think before you go into this whole thing. Like i said before that could be looked at both ways still. Still stats still facts and nothing changes. Its based on that. Just ask around and lets see what other people think. Again im not trying to argue.
its not just gender discrimination... in economics its called price discrimination, airlines do it all the time and there is nothing illegal about discriminating the price if they have valid reasons ie: the ticket booked was closer to the time of departure etc...etc..
1994, GS, KLZE, 67mm TB, LightFlywheel, Centreforce Stg 3 Clutch, CAI, KL36 ecu, B&M shortshifter, Solid poly mounts, lightweight Aluminum Cross memeber, 2.5 high flo cat, 2.5 all back, Tanabe Exhaust, optima battery, ZX2 HD tokicos, eibach prokit, black altezzas.....
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MX-3.com
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LOL, as much as we all hate it, one word sums it up.
STATISTICS.
STATISTICS.
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