A bit of advice on the boards but mainly a custom turbo.

[rikymaru]

First off, I was going to post this in "turbocharging your 1.8" but I figure it would do better as an altogether new post. <P>I'm glad I've pretty much stopped coming here. The dsmtuners forum is much friendlier. If someone posts something that has been said before or has somethign stupid (ex. can i turbo my RS? where can I buy an intake for my car?) to say then the post is closed and then the guy is ignored. No flaming, no hate, the person is just left alone to search. I was just going through and I see this new cockiness and rivalry on these boards and it is quite sad. I remember the good ol days when we were all wondering about "computerized NOS" during the whole F&F craze. You should never belittle someone because there is always someone better than you. Oh well, all good things eventually go to hell.<P>Now that my little personal thought is done I've decided to cover most of the forced induction questions. I plan on just typing for about 20 minutes straight and giving everyhting I know so bare with this if you can. This will be focused towards the 4 cylinder but most rules can apply to the KL series (probetalk would serve you much better though).<P>Turbo the RS<BR>Your little 1.6 is an amazing machine. It's hard to believe it but the B series motors are in most mazda cars. Our form shares closest with the 323 GTX and the Protege LX. So we will start with the basics:<P>Your stock engine is like the B6t or the BPT but there is one HUGE factor people often forget. The compression ratio. 9.0:1. That is considered HIGH in the world of turboes. The 323 GTX is 7.8:1 or 7.9:1. What does this mean? You aren't going to be pushing god amount levels of PSI. Your ideal setup will be to shoot for a good 7-11. Keep this in mind and don't go hoping for Supra/300ZX/DSM type STREETABLE levels of 20 PSI. It's just not happening. If you own and are racing an MX-3 I highly doubt it is a track only car (well, unless you have the fastest rotary powered machine in the world The best part is you can buy most in junk yard for about 80-100 dollars. A bit much and would be more for show.<BR>Mitsubishi Starion/ Chrysler Conquest intercooler. These are stock front mounts (size 9x?x3) taht can hold 18 PSI. And they are amazingly easy to work with because of hte 2.5 piping outlets all around.<BR>My personal choice: If you want the easy road the 323 but the Starion would give perfect protection. Anyhting more than $110 is a rip off. $110<P>Fuel injectors:<BR>You have 2 real choices here. The protege Familia (good luck finding a junked one...oh, and they are all in Japan or Australia) or the supercharged millinia ones I've recently heard about. They both should swap on just fine (not too sure about the millenia, again, it is from what I've heard)<BR>My personal Choice: I was going to go with the Familia's but the Millinia sounds better since it is a forced induction car already. Don't know where you will find a junked one, guess you have to consult the Mazda dealership on these. Got me for price. I'll just say $250 since it is a dealer. $250<P>Intercooler Piping:<BR>Home Depot or some truck supply store should become your best friend because you are going to get to know them over the next few weeks. If your going show then get some 2.5 stainless steel. But regular cheap rubber hose will work just as good. This guy has the right idea: <A HREF="http://pages.cthome.net/gus/cooler.html" TARGET=_blank>http://pages.cthome.net/gus/cooler.html</A> <BR>Yea, and he mentioans JCWhitney carrying it too. No I didn't steal this from him <BR>My personal choice: Cheap and effective piping. If you get super creative it will still be under $60. $65<P>Your oil cooler lines for the turbo can be from just about anything. When you pull the turbo from the car these should naturally be taken with it. Well, that is if the car has 120k or less miles on it. Anything more then order some from ANYWHERE. If you are going to go then go all out (steel braided)<BR>My personal choice: whatever comes with the turbo. free or $40<P>Boost controller:<BR>Here: <A HREF="http://www.diamondstarmotorsport.com/turboparts.htm" TARGET=_blank>http://www.diamondstarmotorsport.com/turboparts.htm</A> <BR>No. you want a what? An electornic greddy profec wazzamadoodle huh? Just shut up. You want to get a..zippit. This is the best boost controoler for your buck EVER. It is just $50 and it is good for 22 PSI without boost leak. And it is just $50. That is the price of a PS2 game. Anyway, buy this or buy the $80 hallman boost controller. I know it is a DSM link but Supras, 300Z's, Starions, hell, ANYONE on a budget gets it. It is better than most on the market (the hallman is a few bucks more but it is easier to adjust)<BR>My personal choice: The Joe P is on it's way to me as we speak. $50.<P>Fuel punp:<BR>Get the RX7 turbo II from a 2ng gen. Bolts right on. Oh, and it is $35 (what I paid for one) Or by mine for $20.<BR>$35-$50 for the average one and $20 for mine since I have no use for it.<P>We are almost done. Turbo, injectors, controller, lines, intercooler, exhaust manifold, piping....IT WILL RUN. Oh yea. The most important one to saving your car (well, next to the wastegate)<P>Blow Off Valve:<BR>Get the one off of a 90-94 Talon or Eclipse and crush it on a vice (there are many sites with the specs on how to do this, I'm not going to bother finding it) It's cheap, it holds 20 PSI, and it is CHEAP.<BR>My personal choice: from the junk yard there is no better. $30 for the BOV and $5 to crush it (what my local mechanic charged me but we are buddy buddy)<P>If you went the cheap easy route then you have spent $730. The expensive, true custom route yeileds a price tag of of $1040. Not too shabby. Now start spending money on all the stuff that is going to brake (ahem, axles, clutch, more axles, a pisont might go in the tuning process)<P>Oh, and to be on the safe side an AFC would not be a bad idea. How about instillation? I'll save that for another day (I'll probably post something tonight)

[rikymaru]

BTW, I am in no way perfect. If you have something you think is wrong (i.e. the compression ratios, intercooler sizes, etc) then post here and I will gladly talk to you about it. I'd appreciate if the cockiness stays out of this though. If anybody wants to belittle me for being an "idiot" and thinks they are badass because they are fast then I will gladly compare timeslips. And I'm still running stock..well, for about 3 days. Then the 3" exhaust, boost controller, Air Filter, gauges, and free mods happen. World of 13's, here I come

[Sonicxtacy02]

gee... all that information is great and all... but do you know where i can buy some clear taillights for my mx-3 <P>J/K. Nice "unbashable" post man. Good to see that some people are attempting to help<P>5 stars for you pal<BR> <p>[ August 15, 2002: Message edited by: Sonicxtacy02 ]

[mazda20]

This is right on all the way around. Let me add the how to on this so everyone can see and understand the concept from start to finish.<P><BR><A HREF="http://members.tripod.ca/~turner20/DOHC ... roject.pdf" TARGET=_blank>http://members.tripod.ca/~turner20/DOHC ... ect.pdf</A>

[David Coleman]

Millenia injectors are for V6's only.

[David Coleman]

Also remember, it takes 2 to argue. If you don't like arguements, simply don't be a part of the problem, because whining isn't a part of the solution. If you have any issues with how the board is moderated, email Jeff or myself and we will discuss your concerns.

[maldo]

Your homework isn't quite up to snuff. If you go with many of the parts you mentioned, you may have just swapped a B6T in for less hassle. Not to mention some of the parts you mentioned could have a negative affect o performance for a turbo project.<P>1) Compression -- The 323GTX runs 7.8:1, very poor for performance. How do I know? I had it, car ran like crap...always rich. Since that time, I have swapped in the Miata 9.4:1CR pistons. These pistons are great for boosted applications, just ask Bill Cardell (owner of FM). Flyin' Miata has over 1000 customers using their kits for the 5spd MX-5 that runs this compression. Many of these guys run 12-14psi w/o problems. As far as what is a good CR, 8.5:1 is the lowest that I would suggest for good performance, anything lower and you won't get a clean running motor. You are correct in your statement that the B6 is one of a select few that has piston cooling oil squirters, very over built in NA trim. IT is actually better in FI than NA trim.<P>2) Turbochargers-- The vj13/14 should not really be recommended if at all possible. They only flow 190cfm, vj11 isn't much better at 240cfm. All three of those turbos start to fall off above 5000rpm when at 14psi or greater. The vj16 or 20 is a much better choice for power all the way to redline. Personally, the mitsubishi turbos are well suited for the B6 characteristics. Ric Stephens(minimonster) has one kit for the miata running the 16g or super 16g (500 and 550cfm respectively).<P>Intercooler -- skip out on the 323 i/c if you can. Go straight for the Starion or an NPR version as they will provide the most benefit. Every turbo vehicle can benefit from a i/c, especially with day-day driving, I would not recommend going w/o. Depending on the fuel used, it can be possible.<P>Injectors-- You should not be looking at V6 injectors just because that motor had some form of FI. You want a set of 4. Protege LX injectors can handle 150whp, 323GT/GTX = 230whp, FC3S 550cc injectors are capable of 360whp. <P>Intercooler piping: 2.5" is too big for the 1.6L as there will be a large pressure drop. 2.25" is the biggest you should go. If you can swing it, do it right and go for a full metal set of pipes.<P>Boost controllers: I do agree with you on this point. Manual controllers work extremely well...to a point. I use a TurboXS MBC with very accurate results. The good thing with the electronic versions are that they help eliminate the dangerous boost spike associated with many manual controllers. They also offer more options as far as boost selection based on rpm, gear, etc.<P>Fuel pump--you have been paying attention<P>Not too bad but you still have some more in depth research to do. You are learning young grasshopper.<BR> [img]shrug.gif"%20border="0[/img]<p>[ August 15, 2002: Message edited by: maldo ]

[rikymaru]

Kick @#$# Mazda:<P>Hey, thats pretty awesome. Guess I can skip the install (would have been basics and not as detailed as that)<P>David:<BR>It is not really the moderation that I'm complaining about. It just seems that this forum (and a lot of others, I will agree) is geared more torwards people that already know. If a person comes along and asks something that has been asked before it would be best to tell them to use the search function and close the topic. Not let people completely tear the guy apart for being new. But I'm really not *that* concerned. I jsut don't like how vets are scaring off the new guys in the sport. It's up to the mods to decide and whatever the choice may be then I'll stay by it. And the second part I wrote was jsut to cover my own a-- <P>BTW, thanks for the insight on the Millinia injectors. Scratch that off the list.<P>Anyway, I'm going to be out for the night so I guess I'll finish up what few things are left to be done since the install was kindly listed by Kick *$@$ Mazda.<P><BR>What kind of mods can be done? You have quite a choice to pick from. First thing to do is get a 1 range colder spark plug. 8.5 performance ignition wires would be nice. <P>A 2.5 inch exhaust will be plenty enough. Be sure it is 2.5 througout and not just at the tip. 3 inches you might be able to get by but the 2.5 would be cheaper and probably more effective in the end. If you do go with an exhaust system DO NOT go with Mazdaspeed. It is too overpriced. A custom one from a shop with a mandrel bender will work wonders or a Brullen one isn't bad. A Pacesetter can be bought at your own risk. I've heared they are alright and I have more bad things about them than I do most recognized companies. Actually, Erebuni still holds that title.<P>Obviously headers are now out of the question. Hood vents would be a GREAT idea. I know it sounds stupid but you are going to be getting a major buildup of heat. More than your engine is used to (hence, the cold ranger plugs) The Corksport ( <A HREF="http://www.corksport.com" TARGET=_blank>www.corksport.com</A> ) hood scoop would be adequate. And if you decide to convert to a B6t/BPT (one or the other) then you will have the room to do it already.<P>Here is somehting I was thinking about. THe 1.6 CAN BE bored and stroked to a 1.8 (323 GTX style, hehe) If done so I'm betting these J&E Forged Pistons will work. <A HREF="http://www.roadraceengineering.com/323desc.htm" TARGET=_blank>http://www.roadraceengineering.com/323desc.htm</A> Your compression ratio will change because of them. The pistons will withstand much higher temps and you can run a nice 15 psi easy.<P>But if you were going to go that far then it would be cheaper to just buy a B6t <P>You are definetly going to be launching harder. Motor mounts would be nice right about now because your stock ones will be getting torn apart by the launches. I have no idea where to buy a good pair but I'm sure someone makes them.

[VizualXTC]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by rikymaru:<BR><STRONG>Kick @#$# Mazda:<P>Hey, thats pretty awesome. Guess I can skip the install (would have been basics and not as detailed as that)<P>David:<BR>It is not really the moderation that I'm complaining about. It just seems that this forum (and a lot of others, I will agree) is geared more torwards people that already know. If a person comes along and asks something that has been asked before it would be best to tell them to use the search function and close the topic. Not let people completely tear the guy apart for being new. But I'm really not *that* concerned. I jsut don't like how vets are scaring off the new guys in the sport. It's up to the mods to decide and whatever the choice may be then I'll stay by it. And the second part I wrote was jsut to cover my own a-- <P>BTW, thanks for the insight on the Millinia injectors. Scratch that off the list.<P>Anyway, I'm going to be out for the night so I guess I'll finish up what few things are left to be done since the install was kindly listed by Kick *$@$ Mazda.<P><BR>What kind of mods can be done? You have quite a choice to pick from. First thing to do is get a 1 range colder spark plug. 8.5 performance ignition wires would be nice. <P>A 2.5 inch exhaust will be plenty enough. Be sure it is 2.5 througout and not just at the tip. 3 inches you might be able to get by but the 2.5 would be cheaper and probably more effective in the end. If you do go with an exhaust system DO NOT go with Mazdaspeed. It is too overpriced. A custom one from a shop with a mandrel bender will work wonders or a Brullen one isn't bad. A Pacesetter can be bought at your own risk. I've heared they are alright and I have more bad things about them than I do most recognized companies. Actually, Erebuni still holds that title.<P>Obviously headers are now out of the question. Hood vents would be a GREAT idea. I know it sounds stupid but you are going to be getting a major buildup of heat. More than your engine is used to (hence, the cold ranger plugs) The Corksport ( <A HREF="http://www.corksport.com" TARGET=_blank>www.corksport.com</A> ) hood scoop would be adequate. And if you decide to convert to a B6t/BPT (one or the other) then you will have the room to do it already.<P>Here is somehting I was thinking about. THe 1.6 CAN BE bored and stroked to a 1.8 (323 GTX style, hehe) If done so I'm betting these J&E Forged Pistons will work. <A HREF="http://www.roadraceengineering.com/323desc.htm" TARGET=_blank>http://www.roadraceengineering.com/323desc.htm</A> Your compression ratio will change because of them. The pistons will withstand much higher temps and you can run a nice 15 psi easy.<P>But if you were going to go that far then it would be cheaper to just buy a B6t <P>You are definetly going to be launching harder. Motor mounts would be nice right about now because your stock ones will be getting torn apart by the launches. I have no idea where to buy a good pair but I'm sure someone makes them.</STRONG><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>You'll find out that it don't matter what you say, someone will TRY and bash it. <P>Great post tho bro. A lot of information.

[ProtegeSTS]

Just to add onto what Maldo said about compression. <P>Ric, who actually posts here every so often ran 20+ lbs of boost off a T4 (i believe) on an internally stock Miata BP. Thats 9.4:1 compression as Chris said. This car broke into the 10s on the drag strip with that combonation. the DSM guys like really low compression and lots of boost, i disagree. Then again, im not a drag racer. Simply put, I agree with Chris's info.

[David Coleman]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by VizualXTC:<BR><STRONG><P>You'll find out that it don't matter what you say, someone will TRY and bash it. <BR></STRONG><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>...if it's wrong. [img]shrug.gif"%20border="0[/img]<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by VizualXTC:<BR><STRONG><BR>Great post tho bro. A lot of information.</STRONG><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>So lots of information = great? Well then you'll love <A HREF="http://www.timecube.com" TARGET=_blank>this site</A>

[ProtegeSTS]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by David Coleman:<BR><STRONG><P>So lots of information = great? Well then you'll love <A HREF="http://www.timecube.com" TARGET=_blank>this site</A></STRONG><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>Definately a GREAT site there David...i mean, Come on, how can you argue with:<P>"Educator ban of Time Cube <BR>free speech is Nazi like evil"<P>He wins...i cant compete.

[David Coleman]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by maldo:<BR><STRONG><P>1) Compression -- The 323GTX runs 7.8:1, very poor for performance. How do I know? I had it, car ran like crap...always rich. Since that time, I have swapped in the Miata 9.4:1CR pistons. These pistons are great for boosted applications, just ask Bill Cardell (owner of FM). Flyin' Miata has over 1000 customers using their kits for the 5spd MX-5 that runs this compression. Many of these guys run 12-14psi w/o problems. As far as what is a good CR, 8.5:1 is the lowest that I would suggest for good performance, anything lower and you won't get a clean running motor. You are correct in your statement that the B6 is one of a select few that has piston cooling oil squirters, very over built in NA trim. IT is actually better in FI than NA trim.<P></STRONG><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>This is one of my favourite topics of all time. Check the V6 FAQ on this board under "Compression vs Boost". Also <A HREF="http://www.probetalk.com/forums/showthr ... adid=52029" TARGET=_blank>this post</A> on Probetalk. My opinions/data figures have been posted here already, just figured I'd link the info if anybody was interested.

[rikymaru]

Before I go on I'm sensing the anti-DSM sentiment here. I really hate to be all prideful about cars but, for the bang for your buck, you cannot beat a DSM. Well, 5.0 Foxbodies are better...I'd get one if they weren't so common in the south. Anyway people can complain and moan but it doesn't bother me. The fact is the engine is running a low 7.5:1 compression (Maldo, the lower compression does equate to more SAFE boost) It can take 22 PSI on the stock bottom and top end on pump gas. There are people running 12's for about $2000 on pump gas and street tires. The aftermarket is cheap and the engines are more than reliable. The only problem is the AWD trannies. But ALL awd trannies suck. That is something you are just going to have to live with when you get an all traction car (323s, Lancers, Imprezas, etc) There is no point on looking down on any car because most have potential to do something. It is just some are cheaper than others.<P>Anyway..lower compression means more boost. Compression is based entirely on the amount of air being compressed, hence the name. A higher compressin rate means there is less room to work with for forced induction (turbo, supercharger, nitrous) But in retrospect you can't expect to have a 4.5:1 compression engine becasue until the turbo spools up (the first 3000 RPMs) the car would run like a slug. Don't get me wrong there was that Pontiac Sunfire (I love this example) in a sports compact about 5 months ago that ran 500 HP on the stock bottom end. The catch? The bottom end was changed every 3k miles. He bascically didn't change oil, just engines. You can easily run 18 PSI on an MX-3 stock bottom end. Will it last? Heck no. It won't even last long enough for it to be PRACTICAL. That is the whole point of having a true street racer. Practical and reliable. Most of you, if not all of you are using your MX as a daily driver. You are not going to set the boost for 20 PSI on a daily driven MX3. There was that Miata mentioned. Yes, I've seen the articles on the amazing Miata and running 380 RWHP on the stock bottom end. But there is a catch to how you see these "400 HP Miatas and Civics" and I guess this will lead me to my next part.<P>Race gas (higher octane in this case) Every see that premium crap sitting next to the 87/89 octane your using? What is the whole point of octane? Octane is made up or 8? (I'm sure that is it) chains of carbons and can't handele ignition quite well. The octane rating of gasoline is a measurement of how long gas will ignite by spark instead of compression. So if you see an 87 octane rating it is 87% octane and 13% heptane (which ignites worth crap). The only reason we don't have 100% octane is it would be VERY pricey to the average person and it would be quite expensive to refine. That little 13% of heptane really helps. Anyway, ever heard a knocking-type noise in your engine? The gas in the engine has been ignited by compression instead of spark. This leads us to our worse enemy from earlier...detonation. So knocks can lead to hte destrtion of your engine. Lower octane is ok on your stock car. But you are running turbo now. So it's on to 93 octane and 11 PSI boost and your set.<P>What? You want more power? Well...this is the part where it gets expensive. You CAN increase the boost. This will make a huge difference. Don't believe me? There is a guy on the supraforums who runs 410 HP on pump and can turn the boost up and make 520 HP just by getting 118 octane. On the DSM board there is a member who is running 329HP on 93 octane but can suddenly make 418 HP (it is around there) on 118 also. So when you see these 400 HP Miata's and 500 HP Sunfires remember....they are having excursions while diong this. These are track only cars running on high, HIGH octane and can gladly take the boost. If you take taht away and put them back on good ol' 91/93 octane then that 420HP Miata drops to 335 or so. That 350 HP Civic drops to 260. And so forth. I bet an MX on 100+ octane can take 15 PSI. but remember...it is only for a 1/4 mile. If you are going to have a fast track car that doesn't run on the street then you might as well drop this whole project and get nitrous. Cheaper, easier to work with, same gains, and it will be used under the same conditions.<P>BTW...it would be possible to have a cheap, high octane. Got a friend in the airplane fuel industry? Tell him to get you some teraethyl lead. It is cheap, it can get you to 118 in no time. The only side effect is that it is lead and it is poisonous [img]shrug.gif"%20border="0[/img]

[ProtegeSTS]

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by rikymaru:<BR><STRONG>Before I go on I'm sensing the anti-DSM sentiment here. I really hate to be all prideful about cars but, for the bang for your buck, you cannot beat a DSM. Well, 5.0 Foxbodies are better...I'd get one if they weren't so common in the south. Anyway people can complain and moan but it doesn't bother me. The fact is the engine is running a low 7.5:1 compression (Maldo, the lower compression does equate to more SAFE boost) It can take 22 PSI on the stock bottom and top end on pump gas. There are people running 12's for about $2000 on pump gas and street tires. The aftermarket is cheap and the engines are more than reliable. The only problem is the AWD trannies. But ALL awd trannies suck. That is something you are just going to have to live with when you get an all traction car (323s, Lancers, Imprezas, etc) There is no point on looking down on any car because most have potential to do something. It is just some are cheaper than others.<P>Anyway..lower compression means more boost. Compression is based entirely on the amount of air being compressed, hence the name. A higher compressin rate means there is less room to work with for forced induction (turbo, supercharger, nitrous) But in retrospect you can't expect to have a 4.5:1 compression engine becasue until the turbo spools up (the first 3000 RPMs) the car would run like a slug. Don't get me wrong there was that Pontiac Sunfire (I love this example) in a sports compact about 5 months ago that ran 500 HP on the stock bottom end. The catch? The bottom end was changed every 3k miles. He bascically didn't change oil, just engines. You can easily run 18 PSI on an MX-3 stock bottom end. Will it last? Heck no. It won't even last long enough for it to be PRACTICAL. That is the whole point of having a true street racer. Practical and reliable. Most of you, if not all of you are using your MX as a daily driver. You are not going to set the boost for 20 PSI on a daily driven MX3. There was that Miata mentioned. Yes, I've seen the articles on the amazing Miata and running 380 RWHP on the stock bottom end. But there is a catch to how you see these "400 HP Miatas and Civics" and I guess this will lead me to my next part.<P>Race gas (higher octane in this case) Every see that premium crap sitting next to the 87/89 octane your using? What is the whole point of octane? Octane is made up or 8? (I'm sure that is it) chains of carbons and can't handele ignition quite well. The octane rating of gasoline is a measurement of how long gas will ignite by spark instead of compression. So if you see an 87 octane rating it is 87% octane and 13% heptane (which ignites worth crap). The only reason we don't have 100% octane is it would be VERY pricey to the average person and it would be quite expensive to refine. That little 13% of heptane really helps. Anyway, ever heard a knocking-type noise in your engine? The gas in the engine has been ignited by compression instead of spark. This leads us to our worse enemy from earlier...detonation. So knocks can lead to hte destrtion of your engine. Lower octane is ok on your stock car. But you are running turbo now. So it's on to 93 octane and 11 PSI boost and your set.<P>What? You want more power? Well...this is the part where it gets expensive. You CAN increase the boost. This will make a huge difference. Don't believe me? There is a guy on the supraforums who runs 410 HP on pump and can turn the boost up and make 520 HP just by getting 118 octane. On the DSM board there is a member who is running 329HP on 93 octane but can suddenly make 418 HP (it is around there) on 118 also. So when you see these 400 HP Miata's and 500 HP Sunfires remember....they are having excursions while diong this. These are track only cars running on high, HIGH octane and can gladly take the boost. If you take taht away and put them back on good ol' 91/93 octane then that 420HP Miata drops to 335 or so. That 350 HP Civic drops to 260. And so forth. I bet an MX on 100+ octane can take 15 PSI. but remember...it is only for a 1/4 mile. If you are going to have a fast track car that doesn't run on the street then you might as well drop this whole project and get nitrous. Cheaper, easier to work with, same gains, and it will be used under the same conditions.<P>BTW...it would be possible to have a cheap, high octane. Got a friend in the airplane fuel industry? Tell him to get you some teraethyl lead. It is cheap, it can get you to 118 in no time. The only side effect is that it is lead and it is poisonous [img]shrug.gif"%20border="0[/img]</STRONG><HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P><BR>you've got a ton of mis-information in that post. Im too tired to break it down, but here are some key points...<P>1) Static compression has nothing to do with amount of air. Its simply volume at TDC over volume at BDC.<P>2) If 87 Octane is 87% octane as you said, then whats your definition of 118 octane gas?<P>3) the 400 whp Miata was on pump gas with 9.5:1 compression. I dont know where you get all this "only on race gas" stuff.<P><BR>Sorry if im fullfilling your story about nitpicking info, but last time i checked its better to provide CORRECT info. [img]shrug.gif"%20border="0[/img]