BIG DILEMA,Please Help!!! :)

94mx3rsr · Post by **94mx3rsr** » October 28th, 2002, 3:06 pm

ok...I am presently in the process of converting my B6 1.6L dohc engine into a B6T turbo engine and i'm kind of in a dilema...I need some feedback, i need some probable problems i am going to encounter...and i need first and foremost some solutions....anything is good by the way!!!I first have to tell you guys about the steps i am going to take to convert my engine to a B6t...first of all, my engine is nearing the 140 000 km mark and the lifters are starting to get noisy....so i will be lifting the head, cleaning it and replacing the lifters....I have also bought some B6T 323 GTX 7.9:1 compression pistons, I am going to be putting those in my B6, i am going to change the pistons rings and put hastings piston rings and at the same time while i'm at it change the rod bearings...then close the engine up and start the installation of the turbo...i have a 323gtx turbo manifold so this is going to fit perfectly according to people who have done it...i also have an IHI MX6 2.2 Turbo(vj5, Vj11) in new condition which i know fits on the gtx manifold and requires slight wastegate adjustment to make it function well...its supposed to add a little snap to a b6t compared to the vj14 turbo....then of course goes...the hooking up of the oil and coolent lines....then goes the intercooler....i have a gtx intercooler and possibility of an mx6 intercooler..this is one of the problems i will encounter.....how do you recomend mounting this intercooler...which root should i go, do you recomend me getting something else that mounts easier, how and where does the tubing get to the intercooler.....????????? then once the tubing is done......i am putting a 323gtx fuel in....it is supposed to hook up fine and provide me with enough fuel to reach 16psi on my turbo (again do you have other suggestions????).....Now this is the hard part....fuel and timing management....!!!!!!!!!!!i want to make my car as reliable as possible and this issue is really important.....i have done lots of research on this but i still need more feedback.... this summer i bought an sds extra injector controller in case i need more fuel....i got good feedback on it and it apparently works really well; what do you think on using this route???....i also called up corksport for a reprogramed ecu from B6 to B6T specs, what do you think, anybody have any experience with that....will the injectors hold up (205cc)...will the gtx injecors fit on my car, do i need new injectors, if yes which one...will it work well with my sds??? am i totally of should i purchase something else...and remember that i am on a budget but still i want suggestions!!!last issue i have is about timing control....will the car be ok just by turning the distributer or do i need an msd boost timing master or something like that...do i really need a better ignition....or will a remapped ecu from corksport do the trick????...what are your experiences any feedback??---------------------------well now it feels good to get this off my head, those are questions that have been bothering me for quite a while...i hope some people will be able to give me some sort of feedback on the things they have encountered doing this or something similar.thanks in advance Jean-Michel Basque Barrie, On[ October 28, 2002: Message edited by: Custommx3 ]

94mx3rsr · Post by **94mx3rsr** » October 28th, 2002, 3:09 pm

......i am putting a 323gtx fuel PUMP in...the pump is supposed to hook up fine and provide me with enough fuel to reach 16psi on my turbo (again do you have other suggestions????)..... ............had to specify... thanks

Post by **Custommx3** » October 28th, 2002, 3:19 pm

If you post in the future, do not go all out in trying to get attention in your topics. Thats a lil too much man. (i edited it)

maldo · Post by **maldo** » October 28th, 2002, 4:05 pm

You really need to do some more research. First off, why are you pulling your pistons in favor of the B6T pistons? You just lost horsepower/gas mileage and gained lag. Stay with the pistons you have, replace the rings if necessary. Do some head work, replace the HLAs if you need to.The Vj11 is a poor upgrade, you only get 50cfm extra out of it. I would suggest the Vj16 as it is much better overall. Don't make the same mistake as I made when I first did my swap, do better than the GTX i/c. Look for a Starion or NPR unit on Ebay. I/C pipes can be routed several ways, I cut holes in the fender wells and wrapped the pipes around the front. You can be pretty creative.Why the GTX fuel pump? Not much of an upgrade over the stock MX-3 unit, I wouldn't even call it an upgrade. Get an RX-7 fuel pump from any model, that is an upgrade. Requires shortening up on pipe but it only takes 5 minutes to do. Upgrading the fuel pump is good but what are you doing about injectors?? The stock MX-3 injectors won't handle much of an increase. Pro LX injectors are 270cc and can handle 150whp max, find some 330cc injectors from the GTX which will support 230whp or go up to the 550 cc injectors from the FC3S. You will need a fuel controller for the bigger 330+cc injectors.Don't waste your money on the ecu reprogramming. You may as well try a Pro LX ecu if it has the same plugs since all you are doing is going from one static ecu to another. Pick up a S-AFC to gain some control of the larger injectors. You kinda wasted money on the SDS unless you are planning on going all out. You could run the stock ecu and use 2 extra injectors under its control to help out under boost.I would upgrade the ignition. You can't adjust timing by turning the disty. The B6 loves 14 degrees of timing but not under full boost, 10 degrees is ideal. MSD makes a boost sensitive system that will work. I have been looking into adapting the Bipes system that is designed for the miata but haven't ventured that far.(Next time, try point form.

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94mx3rsr · Post by **94mx3rsr** » October 28th, 2002, 4:29 pm

thanks for the feedback...i will look into the fuel management you proposed...and i'll also check for the intercooler if i could get one ..... one popular intercooler for turbo aps is the audi 5000 i/c...what do you think about it...i know someone who has one up for sales....for the injectors....are you sure the 323 gtx injectors will fit on a more recent B6ZE....for the turbo well... i wasnt really looking for an upgrade...but the vj11 does flow a little more than a vj14....and for 150$ in almost brand new condition..rebalanced, new centercore bearings it isnt a bad deal....ideally a vj20 would do the job....because ive heard the vj16 isnt much of an upgrade or maybe a vj23 but these are ultra rare...they had one for sales the other day on ebay...the reserve was 600$ ....for a turbo that can turn out 45psi...it isnt bad!!! they are worth 6000-7000$ a piece

...anyhow...i'm only looking for 160-180whp topsss...so 45psi is not needed...more like 13-16 psi...thanks for the response by the way!

maldo · Post by **maldo** » October 28th, 2002, 5:24 pm

WTF??? <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> .ideally a vj20 would do the job....because ive heard the vj16 isnt much of an upgrade or maybe a vj23 bu these are ultra rare...they had one for sales the other day on ebay...the reserve was 600$ ....for a turbo that can turn out 45psi...it isnt bad!!! they are worth 6000-7000$ a piece <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>First off, a vj16 is one step below the vj17 which is the Group N rally spec'd turbo. Second, the VJ20/21/23 can NOT support 45psi. You will be lucky to sustain 25psi before it falls off above 5000rpm ceiling. If you would pay $6-7k for one of those turbos, you really need to do some research. They aren't as rare as you think. The injectors will fit, they are top feed. Injector clips are the same, if not you could always pick up the wiring harness for the injectors for cheap. Mine fit on the '92, the '91 LX injectors have different clips.I would suggest the NPR or Starion i/c over the 5000. Better dimensions and design.Check the 4cyl Faqs for info on the B6T and go to my site in the sig below for info on my swap.

94mx3rsr · Post by **94mx3rsr** » October 28th, 2002, 8:08 pm

the VJ23 is capable of pushing out 45psi....definately not a vj20...the vj23 is totally different...i am not making this up...one of the best rally drivers in canada...Jean-Marc Alcaraz..ex-owner and driver of Rod Millen's New Zealand winning 323GTR WRC car(it has the vj23)....the only one in north america....anyways to make a long story short, he's the one who told me this...the VJ23 will run 45psi..at least it is capable of this...he personally ran 32psi on this unit which was not the maximum...which turns out 450hp on a bpt engine with a 43mm restrictor and god knows how much torque it produces.....i think Jean-Marc knows what he is talking about....anyhow...I appreciate the fact that your answering but you should be careful when you say say that i should better do my research...or "wtf" like i didnt have a clue of what i was saying .....i came here to ask questions because i wasnt sure or i didnt know...i didnt start my project so i definately cant know as much as you on certain things involved in what i'm about to do....anyhow, no offence!..and yes i did visit your site

sincerely Jean-Michel Basque

94mx3rsr · Post by **94mx3rsr** » October 28th, 2002, 8:21 pm

and for the pistons i bought for the gtx...i agree with you about the lag issue, the power and consumption....and yes i could run my stock pistons no problem because the stock compression isnt through the roof...but i intend to run my turbo 13+ psi....mazda engineers decided to put 7.9:1 comp pistons on an engine running 6-7 psi.....i would have to guess there is a reason to this ...and the rods for the B6T are slightly larger...i know that you dont have to run as much boost with a higher compression pistons to have the same result...but i intend to blow my turbo before my engine....i know theres tons of lag when you have those pistons...my friend has a modded gtx and having driven it there is no power under 3000...but i guess its the price to pay.....B6t are engines that can last 300 000km as you probably know.....i'd like to know what you think about it....? thanks

maldo · Post by **maldo** » October 28th, 2002, 8:51 pm

Ummm, ok? I'm calling your bluff.the BG GTX came with the VJ-20 turbo the BG GTR came with the VJ-23 turboMazda would never put on a turbo that cost $7000 on a production car. The VF IHI line is an upgrade for the VJ series. The VF-20 from the WRX is an upgrade for the VJ-23. Since the new WRX's turbo can't support those numbers you are claiming then I think we all know the truth.Mazda put the pistons in for safety sake. Are you going to say that Flyin' Miata doesn't know what they are talking about when they run 12-15psi on 9.4:1CR pistons?[ October 28, 2002: Message edited by: maldo ]

94mx3rsr · Post by **94mx3rsr** » October 28th, 2002, 9:39 pm

I don't really know why i'm arguing with you for the turbo.....you might want to check : <A HREF="http://www.jaustech.com.au/323grpA.htm" TARGET=_blank>http://www.jaustech.com.au/323grpA.htm</A> a car very similar to Jean-Marc Alcaraz's 323...anyhow...group A car with a vj23...with a 34mm restrictor 300hp and 450nm of torque...with a 43mm restrictor....450hp and i dont know how much torque.... quote :"The VF IHI line is an upgrade for the VJ series. The VF-20 from the WRX is an upgrade for the VJ-23. Since the new WRX's turbo can't support those numbers you are claiming then I think we all know the truth."well your comparing two completely different models...unless you have numbers to prove that a vf-20 is a better turbo than the vj23, saying this isnt worth much much...and the idea wasnt even in comparing the two...... By the way the GTX jspec bp engines came with the vj20's(185hp) but also vj16's (165hp) on earlier models and the bp GTR jpec engines had VJ20's(215hp) and later models had VJ23's(235HP) and by the way....mazda would put a turbo worth 7000$ on their car.....a vj14 at a dealer if you go at the parts department will cost you 3000$ and the whole issue of the gtr's were to get wrc approval and not to make money.....they definately dont cost mazda 7000$ a piece to mazda...mazda make over 50% profit off of most parts anyways...at the dealer...i know, i worked for mazda!"Mazda put the pistons in for safety sake"well you answered my question!and for the flying miata kits...well as you said they are great but they also sell the 2000$ engine management to go along with it and i personally dont have that money to spend...so might as well put 7.9:1 pistons as a precaution....even though i'll lose some power in the end

--------------I just hate arguing, but i dont have a choice since what i'm saying is bluff...its unfortunate that you cant discuss things and stay polite...even if you knew much more than i did and that i would be misinformed on certain things...well i wouldnt care if you told me politely....anyhow...

94mx3rsr · Post by **94mx3rsr** » October 29th, 2002, 1:04 am

posted on the GTX board: I am trying to call a guys bluff on the MX-3 UBB. His post is > below, > > find the faults in it and help me out, there is no way that turbo > has > > enough CFM to flow 450hp. Am I wrong?

94mx3rsr · Post by **94mx3rsr** » October 29th, 2002, 1:07 am

things get around pretty quickly here!!!

maldo · Post by **maldo** » October 29th, 2002, 1:11 am

Just to see if I was wrong, I posted your message and my thoughts on the 323GTX egroup. These guys rally race for a living and for fun. They have also had dealings with Alcaraz. Here is what they say: <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> There's a guy (Adam Christopher, in PA, if anyone knows him) running a vj23 on his escort with a 1.8 BPT engine, and he gets ~325hp at the crank at 25psi. He tried 30psi but it didn't do much, but the turbo CAN do it. I don't know how in the world you could pull 450hp out of the thing though. If anyone has seen a VJ23 in person it is HUGE compared to a VJ20, so who knows. BTW the VJ23 is stock on the BG GTR (anyone have 450hp on one of these?), but I'm sure everyone knows that already

~Mike <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>I had some bad dealings with Jean marc Alcaraz and I wouldn't believe a word that came out of his mouth. Also, as far as I know, Rod's car was sold to someone in Jamaica. I could be wrong on this though. Bob C. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> I've dealt with Jean-Marc and there is no way that I would believe everything he says.Escort Cosworth WRC cars ran upwards of 30 psi, but I don't recall the exact figure. This was with very special Garrett turbos and 'homologation' hot side housings to get them to spool really quickly.I suspect that the VJ-23 MIGHT be good for 30+ psi, but I seriously doubt that it will do 45 psi at redline.I'm going to say 'NO WAY' until someone PROVES me wrong.Cheers, Matt <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> This is really a matter of A/R ratios for the compressor and exhaust wheels. Most T3's are max-sized up to about .63 on the compressor and .60 on the exhaust. Those are some large numbers to play with and you will be getting boost very late. A .52 exhaust and the .63 compressor will flow about 350hp to the wheels on a gtx motor with decent spoolup time.Quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The turbocharger was specifically developed for the GT-R application by IHI. The RHF6CB turbocharger has a 62.0mm turbine and a large 65.0mm compressor. By comparison the turbo for the type BPD 1.8-litre engine that powers the 323 4WD GT-X has a 52.5-mm diameter turbine and a 52.5-mm compressor. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>You should specify how you are rating your HP figures. If your ratings are at the crank then they are doable. At the wheels is another story. From all my research, the vj23 is not able to handle 43psi, especially not to redline. If it were capable of this, you wouldn't see boost till after 5000rpm, you may as well run a T88. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> even if you knew much more than i did and that i would be misinformed on certain things...well i wouldnt care if you told me politely.... <HR></BLOCKQUOTE> I guess I know that my help isn't needed the next time you request it. Oh well, have fun with that turbo project. [img]shrug.gif"%20border="0[/img]

94mx3rsr · Post by **94mx3rsr** » October 29th, 2002, 1:11 am

by the way...here are the specs for jean-marc's car : <A HREF="http://64.4.14.250/cgi-bin/linkrd?_lang ... 23gtr%2eht" TARGET=_blank>http://64.4.14.250/cgi-bin/linkrd?_lang ... tr%2eht</A> ml

94mx3rsr · Post by **94mx3rsr** » October 29th, 2002, 1:24 am

323gtx injectors by the way are 290cc and not 330cc

MX-3.com

BIG DILEMA,Please Help!!! :)

BIG DILEMA,Please Help!!! :)

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