still burning too much gas...

[mikeinaus]

are you getting the cel for code 69? are you chipped or k8 ecu or de ecu/vaf? if you are getting code 69 adding the sensor should help your mileage. if i was to constantly floor it i doubt id get much over 200km per tank in the city. in the summer i was on a highway in the middle of nowhere and i was doing between 160-230km/h for close to a full hour. i dont think i got much past 200km on that tank...

i was under the impression the ze uses the same injectors as the de stock? wide band o2s wont do anything special for your car unless you have something to take advantage of the readings. your average o2 sensor gives a reading with a 1 or 2 volt variance between a fully rich or fully lean readings. wide bands expand this to a 5v variance (i think) for a more accurate reading. its useful for tuning with a stand alone, but i doubt a stock ecu would need or be able to take advantage of the larger scale.

some people have theorized that ze's run rich even with stock ecus due to a difference in the engine wiring harness. no one has had access to a klze wiring harness to confirm this but its definitely possible.

[SuperK]

most of our engines run slightly rich, the ZE is no exception. The injectors are the same as the KL-DE though. Exact same injector and flow

[Ryan]

Engine is tuned rich due to manifold. Have to tune for leanest cylinder, or Mazda would be replacing a lot of burnt valves under warranty.

My ZE's first ever tank was 450 km. It now does 400. Its running on a stock KLDE ecm and KL02 VAF.

[mikeinaus]

why do you think that is ryan? is that a natural part of engine break in or driving habits or what?

youve said your running a stoker chip? i assume on a mx3 ecu/vaf? what kind of mileage difference did you get going from the kl ecu/vaf to a chipped mx3 setup?

[Ryan]

50-100km/tank. But that was early in engine life. I'll test again this summer.

first tank was probably fantastic because it was all very easy low-mid RPM driving, all highway.

[Pritchett]

KLDE? I'm sorry I thought he had a stock k8 ecu, from a k8 to ZE swap.

[Nd4SpdSe]

Doesn't the ZE with the stock ecu run rich due to the larger injectors? Or do the narrow band o2 sensors correct this problem fully?

With the stock K8 ECU, yes, because it still thinks it's the 180cc injectors in the motor, and isn't smart enough to compensate, it just keeps using it's programmed map.

An OBDII Mx-3 with the stock ECU, while using a KL02 VAF, is enough and smart enough to compensate

I also run only 1 coolant sensor in my 93 ZE , is that causing me to burn more fuel? I'm at the 250km per tank mark as well, but I'm always flooring it.

Shouldn't be that much, even when flooring it. If you're still using the stock K8 ECU/VAF, that's your problem.

Here's the thing about high-flow cat's...

Their meowing capacity is OUTRAGEOUS!

I mean, they're not worth a damn when it comes to doign what a catalytic converter is supposed to do. Most likely it was a cheap "High-flow cat" purchased which last 1-2 years then flat out fail. I bought what I thought was a good brand catalytic converter (magnaflow) and 2-3 years later it did absolutely nothing. I failed my emissions on a b6DE so bad, it wasn't even funny. I was in the 600's whereas I was supposed to be 130-ish. I have seen many ZE's pass emissions and I would say it's mostly to do with the cat properly doing it's job. My cat even had stupid "certifications" for emissions or something like that.
but you get what you pay for. a "performance" converter for less than 100 dollars, is, for the most part, crap.

This is my personal experience and will vary by setup and situation.

Pretty much, mine was a Magnaflow and was good for 2 e-test (2 years between), but I never had the exhaust in the car to do more than that, but she passed both. I hear it, it's because platnum is expensive, so they put in a limited amount to keep costs down. You can get better ones out there, but ya, most aftermarket ones I've heard don't last.

[Pritchett]

Ahhh, I have very little knowledge on obd ll. As for check engine code, I haven't checked to tell ya the truth. I know I have several on there from egr being removed and broken abs wire. I just finished building my desktop, so I think I will fund my car project once again. I keep getting sucked in when I browse through people's worklogs and I see how awesome their cars look and run.

[marcdh]

Wow you've had a hard time. This probably isn't helpful but by the look of that list of things you've done you probably could have been megasquirted. At least then you'd be in control and know exactly what's happening. Not sure if you're legislation prohibits piggybacks/standalones though. MPG really went up for me with MS. So I'd counter argue you're not modified enough

Best of luck.

[mikeinaus]

does anyone know where the vacuum source for the pcv valve is supposed to come from on the curved neck intake (mine is on the nipple behind throttlebody)? i played around a bit today in class. my home made catch can has quite a bit of oil in it so my pcv is more then likely fucked. i got a new one but the vacuum source i have it plugged into is too strong. according to my teacher the car should idle with the pvc pulled from the valve cover and mine is hooked up to too strong of a vacuum as mine dies almost instantly from a massive vacuum leak even with a new pcv. i did some looking around but the vacuum diagrams i find for the curved neck dont show the pcv system. straight neck has it going into the nipple behind the throttlebody but that is listed for the evap on the curved neck. also all the pics ive seen of curved neck engines have the hose going to the rear of the manifold somewhere.

i also did a 5 gas Analiser. my readings have gotten much better, not great but better then before. hc was at 220 before, its now around 100 at idle, co, co2 and o2 are all reading a bit high still. pcv system could be adding to these readings, im hoping that its significant but im doubting it . just going to have to track down every small problem one at a time i guess.

[Ryan]

There is no vacuum source for PCV.

Its 'source' is pre-throttle, post air flow meter, so it may perhaps been a few Pa below atmospheric, but not really.

We have a PCV AND a rear vent, so you'd need to pinch off the rear vent to test the PCV. Pinch off rear vent, un plug PCV, and see if it still dips badly.


http://i278.photobucket.com/albums/kk82 ... 020789.jpg

You see the PCV hoes goes into a "T". The 90º goes to the intake accordion elbow, the straight thu goes to the rear vent.

Catch can full doesn't say anything about PCV. The PCV doesn't stop or filter the flow of crankcase air, it just meters its direction. If you're getting too much flow, your engine is allowing too much air past the rings.

[mikeinaus]

ok so pcv has 2 "imputs" (for lack of a better term). the one is "T"ed off and goes to the nipples from both valve covers infront of the throttlebody? correct me if im wrong?
currently mine is only going to the rear valve cover and the front is capped off. ive grabbed the metal pipe and "T" from my old car and plan on installing it properly tomorrow. the vacuum line that comes off of the pcv valve itself according to your photo goes to a nipple on the intake located near the curve possibly underneath? and is also Ted into the intake pre throttle? im sorry if im having difficult with this, i just dont remember seeing any kind of nipple in that area?

the only diagrams ive seen for this are for the k8 or klde or straight neck. from my understanding with those they have the valve cover vents Ted post-vaf pre-throttle and the valve itself is hooked up directly behind the throttlebody.

new thought... is the pcv hose supposed to be "t"ed in with the rear vent line and inserted before the throttle? lol i think you just said that but i want to make sure... is the front nipple on the front valve cover meant to be blocked off for the curved neck intake?

side note, playing with the pcv and my catch can has created an air leak somewhere. idle is around 1400 and if i have the clutch depressed its enough to roll idle between 1500 and 650. VERY ANNOYING!!!

whats up with this pic? its just a bare engine but suggest pcv's intake hose has a fitting on the intake somewhere no? does it just go to that nipple on the back of the intake near the evap solenoid (on fire wall)?

Ryan. is it possible all the oil got into my catch can because of the vacuum going threw the pcv? there is quite a strong vacuum, strong enough to stall the engine almost instantly when its unplugged. with such a strong vacuum the oil could be pulled threw the valve no?


does the valve hose hook up to where the egr solenoids (orange) would be on this pic?

[Ryan]

I lied to you. I apologize, I had been making a point to keep my mouth shut unless I knew what I was talking about, and I failed. Its been awhile since I looked at my summer car. The T I was talking about before goes to front and rear head vent, and pre-throttle. The PCV itself is on a different circuit that does draw direct vacuum from that top port on the neck of the Milli.


http://www.mx-3.com/manuals/showimg.php ... F2-126.gif



But this does not change the fact that unplugging the PCV will cause your car to stumble. The engine then draws air through the crankcase: through the PCV hole, through the case, out the vents, into the intake, bypassing the VAF, making it feel like a vac leak.

[mikeinaus]

according to my teacher the valve should only open when there is enough positive pressure in the crankcase that it should be vented off. at idle the vacuum from the manifold shouldnt be enough to open the valve and cause a vacuum leak. he showed me this on 3 different cars, pulling the pcv valve out of the valve cover has a very small if any affect on idle in those cars. im hoping the nipple im plugged into is too large, and that the other one is regulated by something internal in the manifold. if not ive got some researching to do. the new pcv i tied was an aftermarket, my teacher is saying because of the specific vacuums/ pressures created by different engines that its ideal to go with oem for pcv valves. aftermarkets have a compromised spring tension that "should" work across a few different engines, in reality they arnt ideal and can lead to problems. ive ordered an oem and it should be here for monday. until then im going to try and route the intake hoses for the pcv properly, ill also try routing the pcv to the different vacuum port on the intake.

if someone would do me the favour of pulling your pcv valve from the intake and confirming your idle stays close to normal id appreciate it

pulling the vacuum hose from the pcv should cause idle problems, pulling the pcv with the vacuum line shouldnt. just to clarify...

[crazycanadian]

according to my teacher the valve should only open when there is enough positive pressure in the crankcase that it should be vented off. at idle the vacuum from the manifold shouldnt be enough to open the valve and cause a vacuum leak. he showed me this on 3 different cars, pulling the pcv valve out of the valve cover has a very small if any affect on idle in those cars. im hoping the nipple im plugged into is too large, and that the other one is regulated by something internal in the manifold. if not ive got some researching to do. the new pcv i tied was an aftermarket, my teacher is saying because of the specific vacuums/ pressures created by different engines that its ideal to go with oem for pcv valves. aftermarkets have a compromised spring tension that "should" work across a few different engines, in reality they arnt ideal and can lead to problems. ive ordered an oem and it should be here for monday. until then im going to try and route the intake hoses for the pcv properly, ill also try routing the pcv to the different vacuum port on the intake.

if someone would do me the favour of pulling your pcv valve from the intake and confirming your idle stays close to normal id appreciate it

pulling the vacuum hose from the pcv should cause idle problems, pulling the pcv with the vacuum line shouldnt. just to clarify...

I'll play with this tomorrow when I get to work... I have a stock KLDE swapped 323... I'll post up and let you know... On most cars your teacher is right though.. Pulling the PCV valve out shouldn't make the car stall... Chances are if you have a PCV problem it'll be leading to high HC readings but not so much your fuel economy...

Who is your teacher and what school are you at???

Are you doing pre or post cat gas analizing?? What's your CO reading if they are pre cat?? If they aren't pre cat, do pre cat its way to hard to tell how a motor is running post cat...

HC isn't your indicator if you are running rich or not.. Its the indication of unburnt fuel/Hydro carbons... (pull a plug wire off and cause a missfire see what it does to your HC)

CO is your rich indicator... CO should be around .50% pre cat... If you are running up in the 2 - 3% range you are definitely running rich... If you are under 1%, I would say the motor is running normal...

Also as for O2's I suspect you are in school so have you actually hooked up a labscope to them and checked them??


FYI your fuel economy isn't that horrible... My stock KLDE swap doesn't do a while lot better... Tires do play a big roll in your perception of fuel consumption... With my little 185/65/14's I'll go about 360 - 380km per tank.. Usually between 34 - 38L per fill... With my summer 205/40/17's I'll average about 320 - 340km per tank... same fill amount... Tire weight and the force it takes to rotate different size tires all play a roll, but thats not all of it... The physical distance measured while driving down the road is different also... Going out of town when you head back east you get odometer checks on the hwy... My summers messure out 900m for every 1km traveled.... My winters measure out 1.1km for every 1km traveled when compared to these odometer checks...