motor oil for summer season

[Evo_Spec]

so...i'm not here to fight anyone's opinion on anything so no one say anything about me, but i remember a bunch of you guys arguing about this before when i was in Japan and found a demo thingy in the automotive store called super autobacs and i took a video of it.

keep in mind this is around room temperature.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j2cPLwPHpG8
(ignore the sounds, i don't know how to mute it)

[MrMazda92]

Nightshade, I describe people who act like you very simply.

Self-serving, immature, and brat are the words that come to mind. Picture a teenage girl crying because her skinhead prom date was denied at the door by her dad; Now picture this, she deserves more respect than you do. She's crying because she didn't get her way, but she isn't trying to pick a fight with her dad because she sees the futility of that choice. You on the other hand, will piss and moan and change your story to try and save face.

We disagreed on a forum, it happens. Next time somebody says something you don't agree with, try to think about the application of the statement. You(in your OWN WORDS) stated many of the same points I did, then got pissy and ran your mouth.

Don't get too arrogant on the internet kid, some people mean what they say here. Just because your balls are bigger behind your keyboard than elsewhere, doesn't mean we are all put together the same way. Until you learn humility, I don't recommend traveling to Oregon for any meets. I'm not a patient teacher.

[MrMazda92]

As for everybody else,

Thanks for posting more relevant information! I'll be reading as many of the links as I can tonight, it never hurts to see something from a different perspective. I've certainly got enough reading to do tonight, I found some brilliant resources this weekend!!

[wytbishop]

In a nutshell...

the 30 in xW30 tells you that the oil falls withing a specific viscosity (measured in Stokes or centiStokes...named for the guy who figured it all out many moons ago) range at 100ºC. xW40 falls within a higher viscosity range (thicker) at 100ºC, xW50 higher (thicker) yet.

The 0W in 0Wxx is not actually related to the viscosity of the oil. It does not mean that the oil has "0", or very low viscosity when it's cold. No Newtonian fluid gets thicker as it warms up, not even motor oil. Each oil is tested in a device called a Cold Cranking Simulater. The CCS simulates the shear stress applied to the oil in an engine during cranking. The 0W rating is an indication of the temperature at which the oil allows a certain degree of easy starting. To get a 0W rating the CCS must reach a maximum craniking speed of 3250rpm at -30ºC. A 5W oil allows a maximum cranking speed of 3500rpm at -25ºC...and so on.

The thing to keep in mind is, a stright 30 weight, a 0W30 and a 10W30 all have the same viscocity at 100ºC. But at lower temperatures, the 0W will be thinner and allow easier cranking than the 10W.

It doesn't really matter what climate you live in because, contrary to intuitive thinking 0W30 oil is still thicker when it's cold than when it's hot. If you live in Houston and it's hot, it doesn't matter what the cold rating is because the oil is going to immediately start getting thinner and the engine will be up to temperature quickly at which point the viscosity will be the same as 10W30 or 15W30. If you live in Edmonton, use the oil with the lowest W rating available and a warm temperature rating which corresponds to the manufacturer's recommendation. When it's cold you want the easiest cranking oil. When it's hot you might as well be in Houston.

So if the manual calls for 30 weight you can use 0W30 (or 5W30 if you can't find 0W) all year no matter where you live...because the 0W is meaningless in hot weather.

P.S. this thread is an abomination.

[MrMazda92]

wytbishop,

Your information corroborated my own understanding of oil ratings, although in much greater detail. I appreciate the post, and I hope it will help to clear up many misconceptions that have been brought to light in this thread.

I'm also agreed on the tone of the thread, and regret my part in it's degradation. I'll stick to PMing people my opinion if they ask a question, although that completely nullifies the point of a forum. Welcome to the MX-3 section of yahoo answers.

[Evo_Spec]

that was a fantastic post wyt, thank you

[_-Night-Shade-_]

Nightshade, I describe people who act like you very simply.

Self-serving, immature, and brat are the words that come to mind. Picture a teenage girl crying because her skinhead prom date was denied at the door by her dad; Now picture this, she deserves more respect than you do. She's crying because she didn't get her way, but she isn't trying to pick a fight with her dad because she sees the futility of that choice. You on the other hand, will piss and moan and change your story to try and save face.

We disagreed on a forum, it happens. Next time somebody says something you don't agree with, try to think about the application of the statement. You(in your OWN WORDS) stated many of the same points I did, then got pissy and ran your mouth.

Don't get too arrogant on the internet kid, some people mean what they say here. Just because your balls are bigger behind your keyboard than elsewhere, doesn't mean we are all put together the same way. Until you learn humility, I don't recommend traveling to Oregon for any meets. I'm not a patient teacher.

Cool story bro.

[_-Night-Shade-_]

From the front page of bobistheoilguy.com:

This is a very difficult topic to comprehend. Everybody including good mechanics think they are experts in this field but few understand engine oils. Most of what I hear is the opposite of the truth. It is however easy to see how people get mixed up as there is always some truth to the misconception.

Bold part sounds like quite a lot of people on this forum, doesn't it? Ahem, not gonna mention any names... moving on.

The greatest confusion is because of the way motor oils are labeled. It is an old system and is confusing to many people. I know the person is confused when they say that a 0W-30 oil is too thin for their engine because the old manual says to use 10W-30. This is wrong.

Point proven?

More confusion occurs because people think in terms of the oil thinning when it gets hot. They think this thinning with heat is the problem with motor oil. It would be more correct to think that oil thickens when it cools to room temperature and THIS is the problem. In fact this is the problem. It is said that 90 percent of engine wear occurs at startup. If we are interested in engine longevity then we should concentrate our attention at reducing engine wear at startup.

Oils are chosen by the manufacturer to give the right thickness at the normal operating temperature of the engine. I will say this average oil temperature is 212 F, the boiling point of water.

One thing that is no longer important is the ambient temperature. Older automotive owner manuals often recommended one oil for the summer and another for the winter. This is still necessary for air cooled engines but is no longer a consideration in pressurized water cooled engines. These engine blocks are kept at around 212 F all year round. The oil is around the same temperature as well.

So shut up about your climate, please.

Please forget those numbers on the oil can. They really should be letters as AW-M, BW-N or CW-P. The fact that we are dealing with a system of numbers on the can makes people think that they represent the viscosity of the oil inside the can. The problem is that the viscosity of oil varies with its temperature. A “30” grade oil has a viscosity of 3 at 302 F ( 150 C ) and thickens to 10 at 212 F ( 100 C ). It further thickens to a viscosity of 100 at 104 F ( 40 C ) and is too thick to measure at the freezing point of 32 F ( 0 C ).

Oils are divided into grades (not weights) such as a 20, 30 or 40 grade oils. This represents the viscosity range at operating temperature. But it is NOT the actual viscosity as we shall see. The issue is that viscosity is temperature dependent. Let’s look at a 30 grade oil and how the viscosity of this grade of oil varies with temperature:

30 grade oil (often referred to as a 30 “weight” oil):

Temperature ( F )....Thickness

302...........................3
212..........................10
104..........................100
32..........................250 (rough estimate)

The automotive designers usually call for their engines to run at 212 F oil and water temperature with an oil thickness of 10. This is the viscosity of the oil, not the weight or grade as labeled on the oil can. I want to stay away from those numbers as they are confusing. We are talking about oil thickness, not oil can labeling. This will be discussed later. Forget the numbers on that oil can for now. We are only discussing the thickness of the oil that the engine requires during normal operating conditions.

The engine is designed to run at 212 F at all external temperatures from Alaska to Florida. You can get in your car in Florida in September and drive zig-zag to Alaska arriving in November. The best thing for your engine would be that it was never turned off, you simply kept driving day and night. The oil thickness would be uniform, it would always be 10. In a perfect world the oil thickness would be 10 at all times and all temperatures.

If the thickness of oil was 10 when you got in your car in the morning and 10 while driving it would be perfect. You would not have to warm up your engine. You could just get in the car and step on the gas. There would be little wear and tear on you engine, almost none. Unfortunately the world is not perfect.

The night before when you drove home from work the car was up to the correct operating temperature and the oil was the correct thickness, 10. Over night the engine cooled to room temperature and the oil thickened. It is 75 F in the morning now (I do live in Florida). The oil thickness is now around 150. It is too thick to lubricate an engine designed to run with an oil having a thickness of 10.

Motor Oil 102
Chapter two. It gets more difficult.

We left off discussing that a 0W-30 grade oil is not thinner than a 10W-30 oil. They both have the same thickness at operating temperature. The 0W-30 simply does not get as thick on cooling as the 10W-30. Both are still way to thick to lubricate an engine at startup.

I have heard several people say that Porsche specifically prohibits a 0W-XX engine oil, that it is too thin. Now here is the partial truth I spoke of earlier. We will discuss multi-grade oils. Earlier we said that a straight 30 grade oil has a thickness of 10 at the normal operating temperature of your engine. The multi-grade oils 0W-30 and 10W-30 also have a thickness of 10 at 212 F.

The difference is at 75 F, your startup temperature in the morning.


Oil type... Thickness at 75 F...Thickness at 212 F

Straight 30...... 250......................10
10W-30............100......................10
0W-30..............40 ......................10

Straight 10........30....................... 6

Now you can see that the difference between the desired thickness your engine requires ( = 10 ) is closest to the 0W-30 oil at startup. It is still too thick for normal operation. But it does not have far to go before it warms up and thins to the correct viscosity. Remember that most engine wear occurs at startup when the oil is too thick to lubricate properly. It cannot flow and therefore cannot lubricate. Most of the thick oil at startup actually goes through the bypass valve back to the engine oil sump and not into your engine oil ways. This is especially true when you really step on that gas pedal. You really need more lubrication and you actually get less.

Note that a straight 10 grade oil is also too thick for your engine at startup. It has a thickness of 30. Yet at operating temperatures it is too thin having a thickness of 6. It needs to be around 10. The oil companies have added viscosity index improvers or VII to oils to solve this dilemma. They take a mineral based oil and add VI improvers so that it does not thin as much when it gets hotter. Now instead of only having a thickness of 6 when hot it has a thickness of 10, just as we need.

The penalty is the startup thickness also goes up to 100. This is better than being up at 250 as a straight 30 grade oil though. Oil with a startup thickness of 100 that becomes the appropriate thickness of 10 when fully warmed up is called a 10W-30 grade motor oil. This is NOT as thick as a straight 30 grade oil at startup and it is NOT as thin as a straight 10 grade oil at full operating temperature.

The downside of a mineral based multi-grade oil is that this VII additive wears out over time and you end up with the original straight 10 grade oil. It will go back to being too thin when hot. It will have a thickness of 6 instead of 10. This may be why Porsche (according to some people) does not want a 0W-30 but rather a 10W-30. If the VII wears out the 0W-30 will ultimately be thinner, a straight 0 grade oil. When the VII is used up in the 10W-30 oil it too is thinner. It goes back to a straight 10 grade oil. They are both still too thick at startup, both of them. The straight 0 grade oil, a 5 grade oil and a 10 grade oil are all too thick at startup.

This is just theory however. With normal oil change intervals the VI improver will not wear out and so the problem does not really exist. In fact, oils do thin a little with use. This is partly from dilution with blow by gasoline and partly from VI improvers being used up. What is more interesting is that with further use motor oils actually thicken and this is much worse than the minimal thinning that may have occurred earlier.

Synthetic oils are a whole different story. There is no VI improver added so there is nothing to wear out. The actual oil molecules never wear out. You could almost use the same oil forever. The problem is that there are other additives and they do get used up. I suppose if there was a good way to keep oil clean you could just add a can of additives every 6 months and just change the filter, never changing the oil.

When the additives wear out in a synthetic oil it still has the same viscosity. It will not thin as a mineral oil. The fear that some say Porsche has that oils thin when the VII runs out is not applicable to these synthetic oils. These oils will always have the correct thickness when hot and will still be too thick at startup as with all oils of all types, regardless of the API / SAE viscosity rating.

Automotive engine manufacturers know these principals of motor oils. They know there is thinning or thickening that will occur. They take these things into account when they write that owners manual. Mineral oil change recommendations will generally include shorter time intervals than those of synthetic oils.

The reality is that motor oils do not need to be changed because they thin with use. It is the eventual thickening that limits the time you may keep oil in your engine. The limit is both time itself (with no motor use) and/or mileage use. The storage of motor oil in your garage, particularly mineral based oils, slowly ages the oil limiting its use later. Do not store huge volumes of oil in your garage that is exposed to extremes of temperature.

End of part two.

You can read more on the website. I've read through it before and this is how I gained my understanding of oil. I don't talk out of my a** like some people. I do my research first.

[Ryan]

So shut up about your climate, please.

I still stand by the climate thing. You clearly read with a biased eye.

It would be more correct to think that oil thickens when it cools to room temperature and THIS is the problem. In fact this is the problem. It is said that 90 percent of engine wear occurs at startup. If we are interested in engine longevity then we should concentrate our attention at reducing engine wear at startup.

Remember that most engine wear occurs at startup when the oil is too thick to lubricate properly. It cannot flow and therefore cannot lubricate. Most of the thick oil at startup actually goes through the bypass valve back to the engine oil sump and not into your engine oil ways.

The night before when you drove home from work the car was up to the correct operating temperature and the oil was the correct thickness, 10. Over night the engine cooled to room temperature and the oil thickened. It is 75 F in the morning now (I do live in Florida). The oil thickness is now around 150. It is too thick to lubricate an engine designed to run with an oil having a thickness of 10.

Now if oil is too think in his Florida climate, what about mine, which can easily be 50º C less than his?

Most wear happens at startup. This is directly because of lack of oiling. As he states, if the engine is never cooled down this isn't a problem. Heat changes the viscosity of oil. So, not by unreasonable extension, this is related to ambient temperature, because if ambient temperature was engine temperature, this wouldn't be a problem, like it also explains in your quotes.

Now, this lucky guy lives in Florida, and being a typical American, he doesn't know s--- about anything but what his fat a-- touches. I live in Winnipeg. Don't tell me my climate doesn't matter. I hear my poor HLA's rattle like a bag of hammers for a few minutes every morning. I see it take 5 or more minutes to reach operating temperature.

If you're going to put yourself above everyone else, please at least do it well. It doesn't make you any better than anyone else just because you can get huffy about it.

[_-Night-Shade-_]

Lol I give up. I honestly don't understand what you're not understanding here. You seem to be a smart guy but you can't understand a simple concept like this? Everything is explained in the article, read it. And I wouldn't question the credibility of the author, that only makes you look naive. Even idiots know BITOG is the most reputable source of lubrication info on the net. The guy that wrote that article knows more than you, me, and most people on this forum put together. And you just answered your own question and proved yourself wrong: if the oil is too thick on startup in Florida, then it would be even thicker for you! All the more reason why you should use 5W-30 or 0W-30 and not 10W-30 or anything higher.

P.S. - I'm not trying to put myself above anyone, you guys have just exhausted this topic beyond reason and it's rediculous. I feel like I'm talking to a wall. These are FACTS here, not opinions. You can't argue with something that's been scientifically proven.

[RX8SE3P]

Yeah I'll back you with the 30 weight Nightshade, I've read BITOG a bit now too and it's info is solid as a rock.

0W30 5W30 or 10W30 is fine. Those are all the same once warmed up and full synthetic varieties will resist high temps just fine.

No point to the rest of this thread and arguments.

[Ryan]

Lol I give up. I honestly don't understand what you're not understanding here. You seem to be a smart guy but you can't understand a simple concept like this? Everything is explained in the article, read it. And I wouldn't question the credibility of the author, that only makes you look naive. Even idiots know BITOG is the most reputable source of lubrication info on the net. The guy that wrote that article knows more than you, me, and most people on this forum put together. And you just answered your own question and proved yourself wrong: if the oil is too thick on startup in Florida, then it would be even thicker for you! All the more reason why you should use 5W-30 or 0W-30 and not 10W-30 or anything higher.

P.S. - I'm not trying to put myself above anyone, you guys have just exhausted this topic beyond reason and it's rediculous. I feel like I'm talking to a wall. These are FACTS here, not opinions. You can't argue with something that's been scientifically proven.

All I meant to say is that climate DOES matter. I don't know what you were trying to say, but climate is the whole reason we don't all run oil that just perfect for operating temperature, its the whole reason multigrade oils exist, its an attempt to fix the climate problem. Its why Mazda has different recommendations for ambient temperature ranges.

How do you not understand? Either that, or we're saying the same thing.


90% of wear happens at start up
thick oil doesn't pump well
cooling oil thickens - colder oil thickens more.
all oils are too thick to start with for startup conditions (Even in Florida)
therefore, climate does matter.


And for the record, questioning the credibility of an author does NOT make you naive. It makes me a little sad you even said that. I bet you personally question the credibility of plenty of authors, the bible being a good typical example. I honestly wished everyone would question everything they read and hear. NOT asking questions is what gets us into messes like this thread. People read some BS somewhere and take it as fact. On a worse scale, it builds cults and tyrannies. I would agree its less necessary to question the credibility of an author who consistently produces good, properly reproducible work, but its always necessary. Just think of all the s--- you question on a day to day basis. Commercials, your parents when you were younger, the math textbook with the wrong answer in the key, the officer handing you a ticket, politicians in general...



Edit, I just had a thought.

I think you agree climate matters for the cold rating of the oil, that seems to come out in your responses. I think you also would agree that is the top range that climate doesn't affect, and I agree with you. Is this maybe where we're missing out?

Climate affects the low temperature rating, and is therefore a very important consideration.
Climate does not affect the high temperature rating.

Are we good?

Then we can get into how hard you drive the engine (special applications) and which oils are best then, but that requires you to be hardcore, with oil temp guages, etc. I'm not sure I'd use 5w30 in my 600HP 10k revving engine that I plan to use for endurance lapping. Then its a matter of thermodynamics, and you would consider climate when considering the cooling capacity of your rad, even though 99.6% of people on here don't need to. It just something I'd like to possibly do in my career yet... designs systems with reasons behind them, not hunches and "it looks like it will work".

But really, we won't be discussing that, (please), unless someone comes up with a sweet motor and questions.

[wytbishop]

Climate affects the low temperature rating, and is therefore a very important consideration.
Climate does not affect the high temperature rating.

DING DING DING!!!

The thermostat dictates the ultimate operating temperature of the engine so if a guy in Florida and a guy in Manitoba have the same thermostat they should be using the same high temperature rating of oil. The guy in Manitoba should be using 0W oil becuase when it's -30º it allows easier cranking, but once running and at temperature the W rating ceases to be important.

Here's the tricky bit...the guy in Florida can also use 0W oil if he wants to because even though it's thinner at startup than say 10W, it's still thicker at startup than it will be even 10 seconds after. The additives used to get the 0W rating simply prevent the oil from coagulating at low temperatures. They don't affect its viscosity at normal temperatures. When it's +25ºC outside and your car's been sitting for hours, 0W30 motor oil is only very slightly thinner than straight 30 weight...or 10W30 or 15W30 and within a few seconds of startup it will be up to operating temperature anyway.

now...you all have to stop. It's not fun anymore.

[MrMazda92]

The greatest confusion is because of the way motor oils are labeled. It is an old system and is confusing to many people. I know the person is confused when they say that a 0W-30 oil is too thin for their engine because the old manual says to use 10W-30. This is wrong.
Point proven?

Okay kid, now you really aren't reading.

I never said it was too thin, not once. I'm not half as stupid as you seem to think, and I'm a far more capable reader than you are, as you've proven yet again.

I'd like to make a point too, or rather make one(since yours was in-applicable, not to mention redundant)

You're a pussy.

I'd be willing to bet my MX3, that you wouldn't have the stones to treat me this way if you knew me, or even saw me face to face. If you did, you wouldn't have said I deserved to have my car keyed. You're my b---- kid, plain as day.

You should go play Xbox live, the other children will appreciate your know-it-all attitude, maybe even start a fan club dedicated to your ignorance. Leave cars to the real men, who communicate like men, act like men, and know when to shut their mouths. Also; Arguing with a gamer you'll never meet is a little different than somebody who can actually put your nuts in a vise. Just food for thought, eat up.

You can keep up the "I iz smarter than you iz" crap on here, but at the end of the night... you're the one who's got the time to piss and moan incessantly on the forums, maybe it's because you have nothing better to do? I'd imagine that's the case. Mommy still paying the bills? You should find yourself a girl, she may bring out the man you've yet to be.

[Ryan]

Now you're just being a douche, man.

That response was from like 4 posts back, quoting a quote from BITOG.

Your response was 2 lines of "I'm not dumb"

and 16 iterations of "you're a dumbass"

with 0 lines of useful content.