Ryan needs a soundboard for KL build

[Ryan]

I'd say, on average, must of us are more poor than most of the PT guys, and tehy put down impressive numbers, and blow up enough built motors to complain about it and then decide tpo bore out the 6th rod bearing gallery to fix its oil starvation problem, etc, dropping 6k into each motor, and then go through a few of them.

So as long as you don't visit there too often, you can feel special over here

[onlytrueromeo]

Ryan,

I plan to have one of those "built" motors, but don't plan to spend 6k doing it, or blowing it up by being dumb either.

The oiling problem I have been looking into extensively, but won't know for sure til I open my motor up. I will document everything I do.

Steps to fix this so far are:

1) Dry lube the rod bearings. It's not that the #6 rod fails from continuous oil starvation, its probably just a freak thing. Dry lubed parts will help prevent failure from momentary loss of oil.

2) Shim oil pump 1.5-3mm. Don't want oil pressure to get too high by shimming 6mm some some of those guys...

3) Clean all oil pathways and use lightweight synthetic oil.

No since you DONT want to boost, you can plug your piston squirters so there are less paths for the oil to flow, meaning more flow to other places.

More stuff will prob be done, but I dont know 100% what to do yet.





As for a built engine - klze porsche is looking into some affordable forged rods for the KL. Assuming they cost $350, plus $150 for stock pistons, plus $300 for coatings, + $100 for rings and bolts, etc. you're talking about 1k for a pretty strong bottom end. Valvetrain upgrade from Interprep for a few hundred and colt cam tri-flows for another few, plus t-belt, headgasket, etc and you're talking 2-2.5k for an engine that should be quite a bit stronger than stock. When a ZE costs about a grand (or more if you replace belts, etc) this isn't too crazy of an option. Clutch/flywheel, etc will obviously cost more as will new bolts and powdercoating blah blah. I plan to budget 4k for the engine/turbo and try to keep it on a budget.

[Ryan]

you forget all the machine work which you may or may not have to do.

And most of them blow up their motors getting the most out of them, not doing something stupid. Most of those builds are track builds. I suppose what you call something stupid... but I think building a 165hp motor to 400+ and then not using that power is as useless as buying expensive art and then hanging it in the closet.

You mentioned bolts in your build. A lot of the PT guys see the end cap bolts breaking, resulting in the rod being thrown. You should look into getting a shop to bore out your rods and use a larger/stronger stud instead of a bolt. Or, perhaps, the new forged rods will take care of this.


I've done many hours of reading on PT now, and I've come to the conclusion that 90% of this motor building thing is opinion and nit-picks. Everyone has theories and ideas and a bit of experience, but there are no grand overwhelming developments, no magic parts, no 100% hard and fast rules and consequences of any choice over another. Some people lose rods, some people lose retainers, some people claim staved #6 bearing.. blah blah blah.

People talk about over-bore, deck, some fany ring for the HG seat, copper sprays, copper HG's apparently for boost and high HP apps, not N/A unless nos'd. Then there's titanium valve retainers being overkill, burred ZE springs, bronze valve guides, valve jobs, oversize valves...

Its just so massive and so disorganized and inconclusive. The whole KL building thing.

So, I'm going to do what I think is right. May as well add to the chaos, and really, it breaks down to what you can afford, what you want to do, and what you feel or imagine as 'worth' it, regardless of what other people have 'seen'.

I'm no engine prodigy, but I don't think copper spray on my HG will make or break my build, or moly vs chrome piston rings, or shot peening internals, or porting or not porting... blah blah blah.

[onlytrueromeo]

Shouldn't need too much machine work as I have a low mileage KLZE I'll be stripping. I will be getting things balanced though.


You need to look further into the guys blowing up engines. You're right its the ones trying to get the most out of them, but many of them are street racing, drag racing, and not running "conservative" tunes. Just because your engine is "rated" at 400 hp does not mean you need to try to hit that mark every time.

You're right its overkill for 165hp, but for me reliability is key. I want overkill, not breakage.

I'm an engineer man, and I've grown up overbuilding everything lol. To a point. I wouldn't use forged rods and run stock. I don't want to be setting records with "kills" though, or blow apart engines by showing people my rev limit.


The 1% of people that blow engines that don't fall into this category are in the real racing world, and they need to get every last bit. I don't fall into that world, and don't think any of the rest of us do either.


And yes, I was talking about the end cap bolts, and the aftermarket ones come with them!

[Inodoro Pereyra]

Alright, I'm very intrigued by everything you have brought forward in this thread. I'm more into unique and special builds myself, and would gladly take a 250 BHP N/A KL over a 350 BHP TB'd one anyday. Less maintenance, less cost(patience is a big part of this it seems), and you have something not many people can honestly duplicate.
If I find anything interesting in my own research, I'll do my best to adequately convey it here. I'll help any way I can =)

Then you should see what I have planned for my NEXT animal...

With this first one, what I'm planning (and what i proposed in this thread) is really nothing special. Just very old school mechanics. But on the next one I'm going state of the art. And that's ALL I will say about it. But expect some big numbers.

[onlytrueromeo]

Direct port Nitrous???

[Inodoro Pereyra]

You're right its overkill for 165hp, but for me reliability is key. I want overkill, not breakage.

That is EXACTLY the way it should be (and it is) for the street. There's a reason why Mazda makes a 165 HP engine, and makes it capable of withstanding 400 HP on stock internals.
Of course, if I was racing, and the rules for my racing category allowed a max 400 BHP engine, I'd take a 400 BHP capable engine and tweak it up to 399 BHP, because, worst case scenario, if the engine blows, I'm a mile away from the boxes. But for a street engine, that could blow in the middle of nowhere, in the middle of the night, I want all the overkill I can afford. That's also one of the main reasons I don't like turbos for the street. For some reason you lose oil flow to the turbo for a few seconds, and you have a paperweight, and then, if you don't have a way to reset your fuel delivery to stock settings, your engine will run so rich it'll barely work.
Besides that, specifically about the "overkill" Ferrea titanium retainers, they're $15 each. I couldn't believe when the same people that were talking about $5K rebuilds started rambling about $15 parts being "overkill"...
I WILL get the titanium retainers for my DE. Not only for strength, but also because I'm pretty sure the weight difference on them alone it's more than enough to guarantee a valve float free engine throughout the whole RPM range.

[Inodoro Pereyra]

Direct port Nitrous???

Sorry, no comment...

But it's not nitrous.

That engine will be the DEFINITION of "one of a kind".

[onlytrueromeo]

Sure $15 a piece sounds cheap, but these aren't SOHC 4 bangers. 4 valves per cylinder, 6 cyl x $15 and thats $360 for just retainers. More for springs, locks, etc. I'm not so sure you can use the ferrea retainers on stock parts. Retainers don't break very often on KLs. It's also one of those reliability things like you said so i understand...but the interprep ones are a bit cheaper and should stand up to most abuse.

Hehe Can't wait to see the hydrogen/propane/meth/magic mixture you start pumping into your engine. Take lots of pics!

[Inodoro Pereyra]

I understand, and, believe me, $360 is a LOT of money for me. But if you look at the thread Ryan linked, those guys talk about $5K-$6K like it's nothing. Sure, everything adds up, but $5K is some serious money for a N/A rebuild, and to go stainless steel just to save a few bucks with such budget seems ridiculous to me.
Same with the oil issue. Get the high flow pump-don't get the high flow pump. Just spend some money on an electric oil pump, and get it done!!!

Hehe Can't wait to see the hydrogen/propane/meth/magic mixture you start pumping into your engine. Take lots of pics!

This first engine will go on 92 octane. Hoping to get in the neighborhood of 250 HP with only the addition of megasquirt and, maybe, a second set of injectors. Like I said, nothing special.

But the next one...well...

[MrMazda92]

Alright, I'm very intrigued by everything you have brought forward in this thread. I'm more into unique and special builds myself, and would gladly take a 250 BHP N/A KL over a 350 BHP TB'd one anyday. Less maintenance, less cost(patience is a big part of this it seems), and you have something not many people can honestly duplicate.
If I find anything interesting in my own research, I'll do my best to adequately convey it here. I'll help any way I can =)

Then you should see what I have planned for my NEXT animal...

With this first one, what I'm planning (and what i proposed in this thread) is really nothing special. Just very old school mechanics. But on the next one I'm going state of the art. And that's ALL I will say about it. But expect some big numbers.

I look forward to it! =)
I'm gonna PM you, I have some questions about this thread and my own build.

[Inodoro Pereyra]

Got your PM, and just replied to it. Glad to have sparked your interest...

[Ryan]

KL31
1.375" base circle, 1.720" max height
INT 200° @ .050 .350 LIFT
EXH: 200° @ .050 .350 LIFT
200° @ 0.050"
246° @ 0.004"
84° @ 0.300".

KLO1
1.365" base circle, 1.705(1.7145)" max height
INT 198° @ .050 .335 LIFT
EXH 198° @ .050 .335 LIFT

0.338" Lift
196° @ 0.050"
244° @ 0.004
67° @ 0.300"

IO at 8 BTDC
IC at 47 ABDC
EO at 50 BBDC
EC at 5 ATDC

KLG4
IO @ 3º BTDC
IC @ 42º ABDC
EO @ 50º BBDC
EC @ 5º ATDC
max height: 1.714"

K801
1.680" max height (intake), 1.713" max height (exhaust)
K801 INT 1.677 - 1.376 = .301"
K801 EXH 1.713 - 1.378 = .335"

IO at 6 BTDC
IC at 37 ABDC
EO at 49 BBDC
EC at 6 ATDC

KF01
1.368" base circle, 1.666" max height
INT 0.298" LIFT
EXH 0.336" LIFT

COLT PERFORMANCE N.A.
INT & EXH: 210° @ .050 .355 LIFT (274° Advertised duration)

ZE cams will drop right in but unless they come super cheap you may as well save for a full ZE. K8 1.8 L cams from an MX3 are common and dirt cheap as MX3 owners practicaly throw the 1.8's away. They dont quite match the ZE cams but are noticable better than the DE cams.

Can anyone tell me if the KL01 exhaust cam is superior to the K801 exhaust cam?

KL01
EO at 50 BBDC
EC at 5 ATDC

K801
EO at 49 BBDC
EC at 6 ATDC

Same lift
unknown K8 duration, but logically the same?

[Inodoro Pereyra]

Well, initially, the both have the same lift, and the K801 seems to be 1 degree retarded compared to the KL01, so they should be about the same. Do you have the duration coordinates for the K801?

[Ryan]

Can't seem to find them People linked to Colt's website, but they must have updated it recently, because its basically useless.