[Discussion] i4 vs V6 turbo

[wytbishop]

To harsh man. It's a discussion and he's asking fair questions.

Most of the V6 owners who turbocharge use MegaSquirt. There is a ton of knowledge regarding MS here as well as on Clubprotege.com and Probetalk.com.

The boost limit is not really a function of the control system. The things that limit boost are engine compression and fuel delivery. That's a gross oversimplification, but essentially any engine will begin to detonate/pre-ignite at some level of boost. The high the static compression ratio of the engine, the less boost you can run before that starts to occur. And then, with the forced induction you're adding air, so you have to add a proportionate mass of fuel. At about 8psi(ish) the stock fuel injectors and fuel pump cannot deliever enough fuel to maintain the correct air/fuel ratio. So then you're upgrading or modding injectors and the fuel pump.

You can learn a lot of this by reading the worklogs as has been stated and it's a very good idea to get some books on the subject. Answer the straight forward stuff on your own as best you can and you'll avoid having guys become easily frustrated with you.

[chillined]

What are the tuning options for the V6, both in standalone and piggyback? And what kind of boost would be the threshold limit of a piggyback system?

Ok, I'm done.

How did you miss " any ems/piggy can work with any car" Even if you miss that, how in the f$#< did you miss the line: "You can spend all the money in the world, but all for not if your local dyno/tuner cannot work with your system."

So I get the idea that either you have no F'n clue or you don't bother to read.. either way, I'm out.. best of luck. Try F'n google or the search function.


F'n Lazy!

Wow, such frustration.. Maybe I wasn't specific enough. An answer like "Any ems/piggy can work with any car" isn't really answering my question, as it is a general rule. Honestly, I'm not impressed with the treatment of new members. I didn't miss the posts earlier than mine, but they were not specific enough to my liking, so I proceeded to ask a question that would totally seal and answer my question to my liking.

As for wytbishop, Thanks, that's exactly the answer I was looking for. I think this thread could definitely be a helpful resource for people that are debating on a i4 or a V6 project MX3. How much can one be looking at to set up MS with the factory ECU controlling whatever MS can't control?

[wytbishop]

MegaSquirt can be used either in conjunction with the stock ECU or with the right combination of accessories it can completely replace it. It's a lot less complex than most other standalone EMS but it's still a little too complicated to explain thoroughly here. You need to do a bit of research to understand how it works. The short answer is <$1000 for the full deal but you could get the minimum control necessary for turbo for probably $500.

Now would be a good time to start doing a bunch of reading.

http://www.bgsoflex.com/megasquirt.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.megamanual.com/index.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
http://www.diyautotune.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

There is also more information on turbocharging than you could read in a lifetime so if you start now you should be halfway there byt he time you're 50 or so.

[RS_OBD'oh_2]

To harsh man. It's a discussion and he's asking fair questions.

I don't think I was too harsh at all. He pretty much asked what colour he could paint his car. I'm sorry, but I cut no slack for stupidity. Something tells me OP has no idea how to tune a boosted car. So, one would expect him to talk to his local tuner to see what they can tune. Why waste time listing off parts when the local dyno can only tune hondata?

That's the point where OP gets off his butt and calls the local shop to see what they can work with.

MSnS is also fairly old tech. It is very limited when compared to the big name brands. Lets face it, features make an ems.

[chillined]

To harsh man. It's a discussion and he's asking fair questions.

I don't think I was too harsh at all. He pretty much asked what colour he could paint his car. I'm sorry, but I cut no slack for stupidity. Something tells me OP has no idea how to tune a boosted car. So, one would expect him to talk to his local tuner to see what they can tune. Why waste time listing off parts when the local dyno can only tune hondata?

That's the point where OP gets off his butt and calls the local shop to see what they can work with.

MSnS is also fairly old tech. It is very limited when compared to the big name brands. Lets face it, features make an ems.

To be honest, I don't even have a car. Nor do I have my G2 license. Does that mean I can't talk about cars? No, and that's why I keep on talking. I don't have any clue on how to tune a boosted car, nor do most of the people on the forum

I've read Corky Bell's Maximum Boost, and I know a bit about megasquirt and how to start tuning them. Honestly, I'd like to tune my own car for both a street tune, and when I have enough money, I'll go to the nearest shop with a dyno.

Would anyone else like to discuss of anything in particular?

[wytbishop]

OK don't go provoking.

If you have more questions by all means ask, but understand that in the 7 years I've been a member here I've seen this exact same thread with your exact same questions too many times to count. It's not that people don't want to help you or enjoy flaming new guys (much)...but it gets tiresome answering the same questions over and over. Especially when you could probably answer them yourself with a modest effort.

If you read something and don't understand it or need clarification we are happy to help. But if you want people to teach you stuff you're going to get some negative responses. I think you went about it the right way by inviting discussion but when you ask for people's input you're going to get some bad with the good.

If I were in the market for an MX-3 i would go with a V6. You're more likely to find a car with fuller options and in my opinion it will be easier to get to the end result you're looking for.

[chillined]

Alright, thanks man, I'll keep that in mind. I've been a (ghost) member for a bit... I was checking most of the worklogs to learn about the MX3. Talk about interest If it isn't asking too much, can you recommend me some good (Preferably KLDE) boosting worklogs?

[wytbishop]

Go to probetalk.com. They are the DE masters and they are also the megasquirt masters...and there's tonnes of turbo projects over there.

[seawulff]

so im curious. need direction realy. i have searched a bit for it but can quite get what im looking for. do you have to buy piggy back or stand alone systems to tune your car or can you plug in and tune your stock ecu. im building my block right now (b6ze) and getting ready to turbo and of course doing tons of research about how everything works. currious also, can you strap on a few lbs of boost without tuning. ive always wondered. it doesnt use a vein type mas sensor so i should read the higher volume of air and account for it. im not sure if that would cause issues though.

[wytbishop]

There is no way to tune the stock ECU. In order to alter it's parameters the programming on the chips must be changed. This is why you're constantly reading about people chipping their ECU's and such.

You can theoretically "strap on a few pounds of boost" if you're talking about say 3-5psi. The problem comes when you surpass the fuel system's capacity to supply fuel accurately with the stock fuel map. Having said that, the stock fuel map isn't that good even without boost. Installing a piggy back fuel controller would be advantageous even on a stock engine. It won't give you better power but it will improve the engine's efficiency.

[marcdh]

Spot on. Another consideration is timing. With running boost and stock ecu the timing will be that of an NA engine. Ie too advanced for running serious boost. So yes you'll get away with it to a certain degree, just look at Hector, breaking several rules for years currently my SC Ze is running lazily on an NA based map. Regarding management- piggyback can control your fuel and timing, thats how my megasquirt is currently. I do plan on going standalone as my ms has been reliable for a long time now and all the stock ecu does is switch on the fuel pump really. As Wyt says you'll find an abundance of info on probetalk and clubprotege.

[RS_OBD'oh_2]

Shortcuts lead to a blown engine. Cheap components, not tuning, pushing the limits all end badly. If it takes a year to do it right, so be it. Boost is not cheap or easy.

I do have issues with anyone having a powerful car and no driving skill. But that is not the topic.