Unbelievable

[Tunes67]

I am glad no one was hurt. As for the gun issue.. I see both sides of the argument. And I think both sides have good points. But the bottom line is.. guns dont kill people.. people kill people. Take away their guns and they will use knives, machetes, baseball bats or pipe bombs. And statements like "That never happens in canada" or in whatever neighborhood you live in.. are patently not true. Unless you watch the police reports constantly.. you really have no clue what is happening even just down the street from you. Crime happens less in rural areas for the simple fact that there are fewer people living in rural areas rather than in cities. Any time the population increases, crime increases right along with it. Canada is huge and has no where near the population that the US has and a gun control law up there is not only easier to implement... you also dont have the numbers of people there to refute such a law.

Is either argument right or wrong? No.. there are merits to both sides. The main issue here is that people are generalizing the situation. The real solution here isnt about what should or shouldnt have happened.. but why it happened. Rednecks or crackheads.. criminals are everywhere and until the laws of our societies change to remove the rights from those people.. they will continue to be an issue. When criminals are granted more rights than their victims.. society loses. Ok.. I wont rant anymore on this. Just leave it at.. if they catch the guy.. rather than putting him in jail for a year.. maybe they should geld the bastard. When the punishment for a crime is greater than the crime itself.. then we will have a real deterant system that will make people think twice before they pull stupid stunts such as this. Its about time we as a race start taking responisibility for our actions and in some cases.. our inactions. Just my 2 coppers..

Tunes67

[atlantamx3]

I heard a great saying a while back...

"Saying that guns kill people is like saying that pencils and pens make spelling mistakes..."


I thought that was great!

[PATDIESEL]

I believe that a middle ground needs to be found.
First of all however, you need to remember that here in the US we have the NRA (National Rifle Association) They are well armed with money and connetions to keep gun and ammo manufaturers in full swing.
I honestly belive that hand guns should be outlawed. They are for killing people only. No animal will let you get close enough to kill it with a handgun (unless it is some sort of hand cannon that has a decent range and unbelievable power). This would stop people from being able to conceal a gun as easily and get most of the criminal guns off the street. Take even the ones that people currently own and are regeistered for all I care. Or better yet make them take the gun to a police department if they want to keep the gun and have the cops dismantel the firing mechanism so that it is not lethal anymore.
Then we can keep hunting as a sport, but require licensing of rifles and shotguns.
I own a shotgun and two rifles. They are sport guns and would only be used for that. If someone broke into my house I seriously doubt I'd have the balls to shoot them. Most likely all of my guns would kill with one shot no matter where I hit them. (true for most rifles or shotguns)
Funny thing is that we are required to have a license to own a hand gun. Hang guns account for a very large percentage of criminal acitivities where a gun was used. Somehow the cops still cannot track the criminal down via the gun that was shot.

Also, you guys in Canada need to remember that the US is not a very liked country. There is a certain amount of fear that runs through every man that I know about being drafted to fight in some far off place to fight opression or that the fight might very well be brought to us in one form or another. I would never give up my guns to the government; especially after the terrorism attacks of 911.

A second thought is that a poor education system seems to come into play when considering who is a criminal. Canadians use the British model of education and it is a very good one. I'm sure your test scores and such are a much higher average than ours in the US are. It is a large part of every politicians to push school reform and I see it making a slow turn. i think thay crime is a usually one of necessity. A person learns that crime is a way to pay bills, buy drugs, acohol or something similar. If they were educated it would give them another outlet. Study what jails do to reform inmates. Mostly it is job skill education. Give them something to work at and they find that life can be lived within the laws and life can be much more comfortable.

[mitmaks]

glad everyone's ok, remind me to bring my shotgun with me if I want to chill in the backyard again

[Grants]

being drafted to fight in some far off place to fight opression

Pat - is that what you're told you're doing?

http://web1.whs.osd.mil/mmid/military/h ... st1205.pdf

[ccreech]

Well, the draft is not in use any more and I am not terribly worried about it coming back, but with the swipe of a pen it could come right back.

But Yes, that is the president's stance on fighting all battles. We fought the taliban in Afghanistan because they were murderous and oppresive people. We fought Sadam because he was a murderous and oppressive dictator. We continue to fight Alquida because they are attempting to murder people and oppress them with fear. I know that a lot of people don't buy it. They say that we are only there to protect our interests in the region. I however believe that there are as many reasons that we are there as there are reasons why we shouldn't be.

[jschrauwen]

Not sure if it would give an indication or not. But after Max's post I thought, "What if I were to ask for a show of hands, who currently has (owns) a weapon(s) in their home"? I'll take a wild stab in the dark and say that there are an abundantly larger amount south of the border. If the numbers are justified as for use as a protection measure than should one assume that it is unsafe to go there? What is quite odd is the Toronto would fall into the 4th largest city in the US after Chicago and before Houston. Yet if one was to compare gun related crimes you'd find that Toronto would barely crack the top 50 list in the US. There has to be a reason for this. Whatever those reasons may be, they're doing something right. Still kind of nice to know that it's never always necessary to have to lock your doors at night. I consider myself fortunate that I've never been placed in a situation like Meep.

[Tunes67]

Still kind of nice to know that it's never always necessary to have to lock your doors at night.

Sorry J-beef.. I dont care where you live.. not locking your doors when you are gonna be asleep is isane LOL. Maybe if your stranded on a deserted island or something but if there are people within 100 miles of you.. there are criminals within 100 miles as well. Saying that something can never happen to you is the fastest way to make sure it does LOL

Tunes67

For the record.. I dont own a gun of any sort. However.. I have been trained in their use and care. I consider guns the easy way out.. kinda deprives one of the satisfaction of pummeling or stoning a criminal

[Grants]

We fought the taliban in Afghanistan because they were murderous and oppresive people. We fought Sadam because he was a murderous and oppressive dictator. We continue to fight Alquida because they are attempting to murder people and oppress them with fear.

Well they're certainly very different reasons than the official ones outside the US. Its just interesting to know what you guys are told compared to what we hear. We're told:
- the "war" on Al Queda is part of the grey, all encompassing "war on terror".
- Afghanistan was attacked because they harboured, and allowed training camps for, the September 11 terrorists.
- Iraq because Saddam had weapons of mass destruction.
None of them to do with oppression. If it were about oppression, why haven't they attacked China, Iran, Zimbabwe and big slab of the rest of the world?

[Tunes67]

The whole thing in the middle east is nothing but a political posturing ground. It started with Saddam invading Kuwait and Bush Senior seeing a opportunity to look good in the polls. The Kuwait officials did ask the US for help.. and they were being oppressed by Saddam forcing his will upon them.. as for everything that has occurred afterwards? Just politics.. leaders trying to make themselves look good.

Tunes67

[Legato626]

Thats crazy!!! man thats cool you are all right but if his gun jammed infront of me I would be on him like white on rise man!!!

glad everyone's ok, remind me to bring my shotgun with me if I want to chill in the backyard again

Just set up bear traps around your backyard =)

[Meep]

Like I said earlier, the little kids (ages: 3,3,4,4,5,5,6, and 10) were all playing about 20 feet from us. We were all sitting on the ground or in a lawn chair. The guy was about 6ft tall and probably 220-240lbs and I'm 5'3" and 120lbs. I don't think my odds were too good in that one. I could have probably thrown a lawn chair at him though.

But in all honesty, none of us reacted for several reasons, we didn't know where the guy came from, who was with him, if he was going to shoot one of the kids, and a whole variety of different things. None of the people there were sh!tfaced so to say. I didn't even drink that night. But none of us had any money and really had nothing to give him. Simple as that. We'd rather have him shoot one of us then us struggle with him over the gun and get one of the kids shot. Hell, all the guys there and 2 of the girls have been in the line of fire before in Iraq. So, it wasn't anything that really phased them except that they were worried for their spouse (such as me) and/or their kids.

Just thinking about it now still seems too surreal.

And just to clear up something. No society is without crime. Whether it be violence, theivery, vandalism, etc. No society is without crime. There will always be those who have and those who have not. And anyone who feels they are a havenot will always try to have what others have. This guy however targeted the wrong people. But to say that there are no crimes like this where you live is laughable. It happens everywhere. If people live there, it happens. Its all rooted in the fact that we live in societies where people will do whatever they can to get whatever it is they want, by threats, by violence, and even by use of weapons.

[Legato626]

first thing size's doesnt mean crap... my buddie is 250lbs 6'7 and i can drop him. But in your case you had like what 5 other people vs 1...yaaa plus a swift kick to the family jewels hes down for the count! =)

[Yoda]

But in all honesty, none of us reacted for several reasons, we didn't know where the guy came from, who was with him, if he was going to shoot one of the kids, and a whole variety of different things. None of the people there were sh!tfaced so to say. I didn't even drink that night. But none of us had any money and really had nothing to give him. Simple as that. We'd rather have him shoot one of us then us struggle with him over the gun and get one of the kids shot. Hell, all the guys there and 2 of the girls have been in the line of fire before in Iraq. So, it wasn't anything that really phased them except that they were worried for their spouse (such as me) and/or their kids.

Just thinking about it now still seems too surreal.

Personally I believe you and your friends did the right thing under the circumstance. The brain is more powerful weapon that any firearm. You got control of your side of the situation before regrouping and formulating a response from a safer position while at the same time in this guys mind he lost his position of power the second his weapon mis-fired and the situation for him went down hill from there. Outside of a military experience, I'm probably safe in saying that very few of us have ever been in a position were a weapon was pointed and discharged at us, let alone when your significant other and children were in close proximity. Even fewer if any have ever had to sight a live weapon on another human being with pulling the trigger a real possibility. Without going into detail both are a real eye opening experience. As mentioned by several others I am also qualified and keep current on several weapon systems and I have had carried a PDW but not by choice. I personally have not had firearms in the home in about 20 years. I am neither for or against the private ownership of firearms although even in a military environment I see a very limit need for handguns. The main problem with people owning handguns for protection is that they are not prepared to use it. There is and old Samurai saying only "draw your sword if you are prepared to draw blood" Many of the people that I've met that keep a handgun of protection have it in there mind that if they wave it around it will scare off their "attacker". The problem is that in most cases the other person does give a rats a-- about shooting you if they are committing a crime with a firearm in the first place. The next problem the way most people are taught to shoot is great at the range but puts them in a position to loose control of their weapon in a close quarters defensive situation and having their weapon used against them instead. Chances are the even if you are prepared to pull the trigger the average person will hesitate a split second thinking about using deadly force which maybe a slit second to long.

Unfortunately many of us in Canada believe we don't have a lot of gun violent unfortunately those days are gone. The media was made a big deal about 57 guns related murders in the greater Toronto area in 2005. At the same time they didn't focus on the fact the several other much smaller cities had much higher number of murders like 74 in Winnipeg in the same time period for example.
As my brother-in-law who is a member of Edmonton Police Services says the deck is stacked against the cop on the street by the judicial system and unlike in the US, Judges in Canada are appointed and don't really have to answer to anyone other that themselves if they make a mistake.
The gun registry doesn't work and there are so many guns entering the country illegally. Were my parents live near the US border someone getting busted for smuggling handguns doesn't even get reported by the local media anymore unless it is a slow news day. basically the only way to resolve much of the crime issue is the reform the justice system so that it responded to the people and not just the criminal and defence lawyers .

Chances are just confronting this guy as some have suggested may have escalated the situation rather than solved it and if he did have friend near by drawn then it the fight while would have resulted in many intended injuries or worse. I think in this situation both sides withdrawing for whatever reason was the best option considering.

[RaverChankoMX3]

Meep, not to minmize your tramatic and harrowing experience...

Sooo...in no way did you minimize Meep's horrific event to push an [political] agenda on gun ownership policy? One would be hard-pressed to read your response and find otherwise:

The home owner is an and out of the house that quick with a loaded weapon...It's an evil monster that will never go away for the US unless it changes it's laws, policies, views and perspectives on the NEED to bear arms.
John

Furthermore, according to your native provience, The Toronto Star:

"...From Pearson International Airport to the Don Valley Parkway, and between the 407 and the Lake, Ontario is nearly gun-free...But of course, that is exactly where most gun crimes take place. The conclusion to be drawn from the Star's graphic is obvious: The most sensational shootings and highest number of gun murders in Ontario occur within the area that already has by far the lowest levels of legal firearm ownership.

With this one map, the Star unwittingly proved correct those who argue that a ban on all legal handguns will do nothing to reduce gun crime in Toronto. It also debunked all those, such as the Ontario government, the Liberal Party of Canada and the Star itself, who have made a ban the lynchpin of their crime-reduction strategies"

The simple, inescapable truth is that most firearms crimes being committed in Ontario are not being committed with legal guns, so no ban on legal guns -- whether handguns or shotguns and rifles -- is going to have any impact on crime rates.
2/15/2006
Ontario Crime Rates Highest Where Legal Gun Ownership Lowest
by Lorne Gunter:

I'm sorry John but humans have been committing theft, rape, and larceny for thousands of years. We're still going to have crimes even if you ban handguns. Instead of taking a reactive approach (banning handguns) to these issues, try using a proactive approach (prevention). Inference is a powerful tool when you ask they correct "why-questions": Why do people steal? It has been suggested that socioeconomic status (S.E.S.) is a risk factor. For further reading, I'd suggest MIT Press for current journal articles.

In the end game, perhaps, you'd perfer the assailant use a knife instead? Nevertheless, we could ban those next and continue to be blind to the realistic root issues instead chasing an unrealistic "evil monster"