Myth Busting: Crossdrilled Rotors

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Tunes67
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Post by Tunes67 »

however why do I see so many cross drilled rotors on newer upscale cars? do they all have the same process as Porsche?
Because the common public has gotten the notion that they are better. The auto makers try very hard to follow trends so they can sell their cars. As long as they give acceptable performance, having a little extra bling always helps sell a car ;) "Oh honey look.. it has cross drilled rotors.. it must have good brakes" ;)

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SuperK
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Post by SuperK »

Wytbishop, you completely misunderstood my train of thought there.
Now I will have to say, it most likely was because of my bad wording.
I was trying to put it in a very simple perspective, not a scientific analysis in physics or astrology. It was supposed to be super simplified, thank you very much.

So to clarify a bit what I said... poorly, and what you succeeded in overanalyzing, is this:

1. In reference to a rotor's mass, it's size, it's thickness, a thin rotor cools faster than a thick rotor does. Before you go rocket scientist on me, let me say that a thin piece of metal cools faster than a thick piece of metal. Surface area exposed to the environment. HOWEVER you want to word it, I don't care.

2. In reference to you making a connection between the rotor's mass and the car's mass, you can't put a thin rotor on a car. It'll break, explode, cause hunger in 3rd world countries. There are many OTHER reasons why a car's rotor has to be thicker than a motorcycle's rotor. How is that insignificant? Do you like children to go hungry?


The comparison was supposed to be between a cars rotor size, and a motorcycles rotor size. It was SUPPOSED to simply point out that the cars rotors just GET hotter and STAY hotter than one from a motorcycle. A car is heavier than a motorcycle. More mass for the rotor to stop. Because there is more mass for the rotor to stop, there is more heat created.
to successfully transfer that sudden influx of heat from the pad to the rotor, "Mo' rotor" is essential. So you got big rotors. guess what? They're harder to cool. HOW is it you find you have to disagree with that?

And may I mention this as well, there was nothing mentioned of Cross-drilling here. I was trying to point out the differences between a motorcycle's rotor and a car's rotor, so get the word "cross-drilling" out of the conversation at this point please.
Yes a motorcycle's brakes are more exposed to the atmosphere and this is taken advantage of by manufacturers. Yes a motorcycle's braking system has less kinetic enrgy to convert to heat as a result of the overall lower mass of a motorcycle compared to a car. This has nothing to do with the size of the bike's rotor compared to the car's.
How does this not have anything to do with the bike's rotor and the car's?
Bike's rotor is SMALL, because the bike is SMALL. The car is BIGGER and the rotors are BIGGER. the relation is between the car's rotor and the car's weight vs. the motorcycle's rotor and the bike's weight. Difference between bike and car. Bike and car. Bike and car, Aarrrgh! Bike and car, bike and car, bike and car BIKE AND CAR.

Also, since rotor's are much thinner, they are able to remove heat from the rotors much faster, similar to how a heatsink works, again. Thinner fins, better heat transfer.
Ok, so this WAS very poorly worded. I was, again, simply trying to say, thinner rotor, more exposure to the atmosphere, better heat transfer.
And I failed to push the point when I said the word heatsink.
You don't create a heatsink that's shaped like a cube, then throw a fan on it and say, "Cool." That's all I was trying to say in it's super ultra mega simple nature. I didn't use the words "pad" anywhere in that sentence. They had no place in that sentence. They were exiled, banished. I wrote "VOID" on them and threw them in the garbage.

A. yes but not because the rotors are less massive, because the bike is less massive.
B. yes less heat energy is being absorbed and subsequently shed by a motorcycle's rotors, but only because less heat is being generated due to the motorcycle's overall lower mass.
C. see A....and B.
No crap. I'm glad we agree on something. The bike is less massive. Congratulations. this was ALL the difference between the bike and the car.
Not because, again, simply rotor size, but rotor size/mass/ability to cure cancer, in relation to the vehicle it's trying to stop, or however you want to word it.


The ONLY conflicting issue, is how does a cross-drilled rotor compare to a solid rotor on the testbed. The issue here, is: Cross-drilled bad for cars... good for motorcycles?
I KNOW they're not a good option for cars, but I'm SUGGESTING they might be feasibly better in a motorcycle application.
Manufacturers of the MOTORCYCLE industry COULD have said, "Durr, they look cool on dem' bikes, let's slap them on"

OR they could have done long strings of mathematical calculations based on their application ALONG WITH REAL TIME TEST RESULTS to determine whether a SOLID rotor was a better application than a CROSS DRILLED rotor.
Now have you seen a side by side comparison? Have you seen a mathematical equation based on ALL the factors of a motorcycle? All it's characteristics?

All this was trying to do was point out the inherently different characteristics of a WHOLE motorcycle vs. a WHOLE car and how THOSE differences can cause massive differences to the braking system, or more exact, how they effect the rotors themselves.

Now my OPINION is that it's possible manufacturers HAVE done the appropriate real time testing on different applications and MAYBE there WAS a reason for them to choose cross-drilled on their high performance bikes. Giving manufacturers a bit of credit here, that there MIIIIIGHTTTT be a reason why they chose cross-drilled over solid IN A MOTORCYCLE <<< other than the reason that "They look cool"


My Very last question: If I were to present you with a child's toy, one that has a string attached to a plastic circular object with pictures of different animals and an arm that moves in a clockwise motion. One that has a mechanism that when you pull that string, that the arm that moves in the clockwise motion moves and falls on a random picure of an animal, say it falls on a cow.
Another mechanism featured on this plastic circular object is, say, an audible mechanism. It plays back audio.
OK, so it falls on the cow, like I said previously, right? and this audio mechanism all of a sudden sends out frequencies out of this little speaker on this circular plastic object, right? To the human ear, we decode these frequencies based on the vibrations of the tiny hairs in the ears, do we agree?

OK so say the human ear decodes these vibrations as, "The cow says, Moo"


And I say to you, "Hey, cows say moo"

I have a feeling you'd disagree with me.
And say something like, "No, it says, "HruuuUUUgh!"
And I'd say, "It's the same thing."
And you'd say, "No it's not."
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Post by fatray »

I almost can't be bothered...

When someone discusses the physics of a situation and begins with, "lets reword the structure a little bit" I start to worry.
superK wrote:I was trying to put it in a very simple perspective, not a scientific analysis in physics or astrology
Well, I don't know any Astrology, and not much Physics, but surely a discussion about braking performance is purely physics, and should be analysed scientifically. Which to me means making a point and justifying it, and welcoming criticism, clarification and improvements.

SuperK your first post, in my opinion, was just awful. While I was reading it I was hoping someone had destroyed it piece by piece so I wouldn't have to. Your second post just shows beyond any doubt that you aren't a reasonable person to discuss physics with.

well, enough fuel poured...

WytBishop, "It is always true" ...shudder
WytBishop wrote:It is always true that putting holes in the rotor reduces it's contact area with both the pads and the air.
If the hole diameter is small enough, or the pad is thick enough then the actual surface area will increase. Surface area calculations, that's Maths, and I can talk about that. As for whether it will help, that's physics, and I bow to your evident knowledge :)
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Post by Flyer »

Keep in mind that most cross-drilled brakes out there in the market were not cast that way. Usually they source blanks then drill the holes in afterwards. I don't know about the rest of you, but the idea of tampering with the structural integrity of something designed to perform a vital function on a car does not appeal to me. From what I gathered, I believe the cross-drilled rotors on "supercars" like Lambo or Ferrari are cast with the holes as opposed to drilled into blanks. Finally, keep in mind you cannot machine slotted or corss-drilled rotors, but you can machine blanks.
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Post by wytbishop »

You said:
"Rotors on a car are thick. They have a high amount of mass. They also have more mass to stop. This means:
A. The more mass, the more heat is required to stop. "


This is a dangling participle. (I know, I can't help it) When you say, "They have more mass to stop.", it appears that you are saying that the greater mass of the rotor contributes to the mass of the vehicle, making it heavier and therefore harder to stop. I see now that this is not what you meant, but again, it was unclear.

Scientifically. You said, "Also, since rotor's are much thinner, they are able to remove heat from the rotors much faster, similar to how a heatsink works, again. Thinner fins, better heat transfer."

This is not true. A cube 2" on a side has 24 square inches of surface area. A plate of the same material which is 3"x4" standing on edge also has 24 square inces of surface area. They radiate heat at exactly the same rate. The cube has a volume of 8 cubic inches vs. the plate which has 3 cubic inches of volume (if we assume that it's 1/4" thick). Because the plate has less volume and therfore less mass, it can hold less heat and will become cool sooner, but it didn't work any faster. A heatsink is designed to have a certain mass dependant upon the amount of energy it will have to absorb. The fins on a heatsink are flat and large to give the greatest surface area for that mass. The effectiveness of that heat sink is not influenced by their thickness.

So, if you're designing a heat sink (or a motorcycle brake rotor), you make it no larger than it has to be to absorb the amount of energy which will be generated. You can make it rediculously large in diameter and thin because you have the space and then, since you know that it will be well ventilated, you can drill holes in it because you're not too concerned with the loss of surface area, and it looks cool. DUDE, I'm a mechanical Engineer. This is what I do. You're in my wheelhouse!!!

To address your conclusion (again), A bike's brakes are the same as a car's. They don't release heat faster because they're thinner. They are made thinner and very large in diameter to get the largest surface area possible for the mass required to absorb the bikes energy. Cross drilling them reduces unsprung weight and rotating mass, sure, but it's negligible. It's really all for looks.

I'm not a jerk or an intellectual snob, but you have to express yourself better and make sure what you are saying is right or people will:

A. misinterpret your message.
B. flame you for posting s--- you don't know s--- about.

I didn't want it to be an argument, I just want it to be accurate.
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Post by Whisper »

Flyer wrote:Keep in mind that most cross-drilled brakes out there in the market were not cast that way. Usually they source blanks then drill the holes in afterwards. I don't know about the rest of you, but the idea of tampering with the structural integrity of something designed to perform a vital function on a car does not appeal to me. From what I gathered, I believe the cross-drilled rotors on "supercars" like Lambo or Ferrari are cast with the holes as opposed to drilled into blanks. Finally, keep in mind you cannot machine slotted or corss-drilled rotors, but you can machine blanks.
Yeah, I'm pretty sure the high-end CD rotors are cast with holes.
fatray wrote: If the hole diameter is small enough, or the pad is thick enough then the actual surface area will increase. Surface area calculations, that's Maths, and I can talk about that. As for whether it will help, that's physics, and I bow to your evident knowledge :)
Yes, the surface area does increase, but if you'll notice, he wasn't talking about surface area. He was talking about contact area.

Just a minor clarification. :)
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Post by fatray »

Whisper wrote: Yes, the surface area does increase, but if you'll notice, he wasn't talking about surface area. He was talking about contact area.

Just a minor clarification. :)
Yes, I did notice. And I agree with his analysis, and I appreciate the effort made by someone who knows his physics and explains himself very well. But as a maths student I took issue with the statement "it is always true that..." which i reserve for situations where something is always true.

And btw, I didn't say that the surface area increases, it doesn't necessarily. If the hole's radius is greater than its length then the surface area decreases.
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Post by SuperK »

So maybe i just completely suck at trying to explain things. Good at stories, suck at explanation.
while the explanation that was intended (obviously poorly, since no one got it) was significantly the same as what you were trying to say, wytbishop, the opinion of the matter (difference between automotive/motorcycle, why cross drilled can be a more viable option for bikes and not for cars) can be argued to my heart's content.
http://motorcyclebloggers.com/tech-talk ... s-general/

I thought this was particularly interesting, as he touches on the importance of de-gassing and the role drilled/slotted play on a motorcycle.
This article was written in 2005... I don't know if he's behind the times, if it IS an important issue on a bike or what as of now, or was it, or can it, or what-not.
If it is still an important issue, then yes, cross-drilled CAN play a role in motorcycle applications, and in these areas, this is why I question whether cross drilled does actually have a substantial purpose... just on bikes and not automobiles.

its really not so critical on motorcycle rotors as it is in the automotive field. For autos, I would stick with slots as they do have the surface cracking propensity as rotors with cross-drilled holes. As for motorcycles, the braking capability to weight ratio is so much better that I have never cracked one myself with either design
^^^^^^ and that is what I REALLY wanted to say, that the inherent difference in automobiles and bikes can alter the effectiveness or the consequenses of different applications.

I'm not an expert on brakes, obviously, but people who have MUCH more knowledge than me say, "yes, it does serve useful purposes (on bikes)"
and some people (wytbishop?) say, "negative, sir, you are wrong."

And because two very knowledgable people have two completely different view-points, both point-of-view's can be both incorrect and correct on different topics.
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wytbishop
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Post by wytbishop »

fatray wrote:
Whisper wrote: Yes, the surface area does increase, but if you'll notice, he wasn't talking about surface area. He was talking about contact area.

Just a minor clarification. :)
Yes, I did notice. And I agree with his analysis, and I appreciate the effort made by someone who knows his physics and explains himself very well. But as a maths student I took issue with the statement "it is always true that..." which i reserve for situations where something is always true.

And btw, I didn't say that the surface area increases, it doesn't necessarily. If the hole's radius is greater than its length then the surface area decreases.
Fatray is of course correct that the surface area may actually increase. However in fluid dynamics, as the cross drilled hole passes through the atmosphere at the rotational velocity of the wheel, the added suface area in the cross drilled hole has virtually no contact with the air and no contact at all with the pads. So it is always true from the point of view of the physical discussion. But in that case, I probably could have been more clear myself.

SuperK, the last thing I wanted was to get in a big pissing contest over who knows more about physics blah blah blah...I'm sure there's lots of stuff that you are expert with that I don't know s--- about. In the same way that Fatray felt compelled to correct me when I generalized about something that he studies and cares about, I feel compelled to clarify when someone makes an incorrect scientific statement. I'm a science geek. I literally cannot help myself.

I now feel that I do understand your original point and while I think you still are working from a few misconceptions in the physical world, I hear what you're saying. I still disagree, but I hear you. Drilling rotors has an important purpose back in the day when outgassing was a problem. Back then, a drilled rotor was a performance upgrade and was more expensive due to higher machining costs and/or more complex casting. After generations of people were brought up thinking of drilling as an upgrade, well...people still think they're better. I really think that's the only reason it's done. My RC51 has drilled rotors on the front and rear and it looks frickin awesome. I think I would be less happy with the appearance of my bike if they were solid even though I know they would probably work better with my ceramic pads.

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I hope we can all get along now. BTW I appreciated your other brake write up. That was really helpful.
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Post by Whisper »

fatray wrote: And btw, I didn't say that the surface area increases, it doesn't necessarily. If the hole's radius is greater than its length then the surface area decreases.
So you didn't say this:
fatray wrote: If the hole diameter is small enough, or the pad is thick enough then the actual surface area will increase.
Which is what I said "yes" to. Perhaps you misunderstood. Of course if the hole is half the size of the rotor, then the surface area will decrease, nobody is claiming otherwise.
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Post by Whisper »

wytbishop wrote:Drilling rotors has an important purpose back in the day when outgassing was a problem. Back then, a drilled rotor was a performance upgrade and was more expensive due to higher machining costs and/or more complex casting. After generations of people were brought up thinking of drilling as an upgrade, well...people still think they're better. I really think that's the only reason it's done.
I may be wrong, but I think in racing application some of the rotors have holes and slots as a compromise to reduce the mass, because they're just so giant, and to scrape off the glazing, if that's still an issue with some pads. Of course that kind of compromise serves no purpose in street application, so yeah in 99% of the cases it's just styling.
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Post by wytbishop »

Whisper wrote:
wytbishop wrote:Drilling rotors has an important purpose back in the day when outgassing was a problem. Back then, a drilled rotor was a performance upgrade and was more expensive due to higher machining costs and/or more complex casting. After generations of people were brought up thinking of drilling as an upgrade, well...people still think they're better. I really think that's the only reason it's done.
I may be wrong, but I think in racing application some of the rotors have holes and slots as a compromise to reduce the mass, because they're just so giant, and to scrape off the glazing, if that's still an issue with some pads. Of course that kind of compromise serves no purpose in street application, so yeah in 99% of the cases it's just styling.
I did mention that it would negligebly reduce unsprung and rotating mass. The swept area on a 13.5" rotor is so large that they can remove material to save weight and not worry about contact area. On a race bike that may be a significant consideration. Scraping the glaze off would, I think, be better accomplished by slotting the rotor, but that may be their goal in some applications.
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