need to see if this is ZE

Selecta · Post by **Selecta** » September 9th, 2005, 7:32 am

I should be back hopefully tomorrow evening. I will have my brother call the dyno place and make a booking...maybe we can do on Sunday or something and put an end to it.

The place is
Tiger Japanese Auto Parts Ltd.
84 Crockford Blvd.
Toronto, Ontario, Canada, M1R 3C3
Phone 416-750-8578, 1-888-664-6618
Fax 416-750-9947

And you are correct when I came to the Hamilton meet Mike, you and I did check the codes...so not sure how we missed it then. But in any event we will get our motors sorted out...I aint gonna let someone sell me a DE and tell me it's a ZE

Selecta · Post by **Selecta** » September 9th, 2005, 10:04 am

Ian,

My brother called the dyno place..and they have moved and are setting up at a new location some where near Keele and lawrence. He has left my number with them so they should be up and running some time weds so hopefully we can go then.

jschrauwen · Post by **jschrauwen** » September 9th, 2005, 5:19 pm

Why would you want to spend money to dyno a DE?????? Maybe I'm missing something here. The longer you delay the worse your chances of a possible positive result. This will go against you if it ever sees small claims court. Get the necessary substantiation and don't d--- around.

relisys_3200 · Post by **relisys_3200** » September 9th, 2005, 6:29 pm

jschrauwen wrote:Why would you want to spend money to dyno a DE?????? Maybe I'm missing something here. The longer you delay the worse your chances of a possible positive result. This will go against you if it ever sees small claims court. Get the necessary substantiation and don't d--- around.

Agreed...and getting a dyno to prove to you that its a DE is just throwing money away. Your better to just to start checking for codes and taking lots of pictures for proof....and bring it to mazda to get them to put something in writing stating what engine it is.

Devlin · Post by **Devlin** » September 9th, 2005, 7:23 pm

i went to mazda and had one of the techs check it, but he said it honestly could still b a ZE w/ DE heads. i don't know what i could get them to put in writting honestly if they can't tell w/o ripping it apart.
the dyno will at least say for sure if its 200 hp or not.

at the moment all i really have is a shitload of info from the net (i personally know it to b true, but it's not exactly "official") and from ppl. and if they don't believe me, why would they believe anyone else unless i can bring someone of Mazda authority? Once Uday is back tomorrow, i'll be seeing him and we'll figure out what to do.

papa roached · Post by **papa roached** » September 9th, 2005, 7:41 pm

is it a curved neck motor? i have heard stories of not all curved neck motors having KL31 heads, at least here in the states the ones pulled from millenias

Devlin · Post by **Devlin** » September 9th, 2005, 11:30 pm

it is a curved neck manifold yes.

if anybody knows where i can get "official" info (from a ford or mazda source rather than a geocities page), then i wouldn't have to worry about the dyno.

i can easily see the shop being ignorant about the differences, because they don't really seem like the ppl to waist their time on the net, and unless their supplier told them, how would they know?
i know that it is common knowledge among those who know the differences, but where is the source of this info? for something that involves a good amount of money, they are going to want solid fact to go by (i would if i were them) before giving a refund or costing themselves another couple days labour.
they don't even know the proper compression a ZE is supposed to be. all they know is that it is a KL from Japan, so they think ZE's are the only ones IN Japan.
is there no place i can get anything official stating that DE's have been imported to Japan into Probe's?, or anything stating that a ZE has the square and DE has D-shaped ports (official mind u, if they are ignorant to what the shape means, they wouldn't find that as proof either)?
i really want this to BE a ZE, it would b easier for everyone, but if it comes down to bringing the law involved, HOW DO I PROVE ANYTHING?

it would be silly if internet information and word-of-mouth became concrete evidence in court, and that would be his defense. i would have to prove somehow that its not a ZE, and so far ppl have been saying this, and sending me to that site, but nothing really usable in court if needed. i don't doubt that the information given is right, but i know they will doubt it, and i bet the judge won't know jack s--- about engines and without solid proof will just throw the whole thing out.

rccardude04 · Post by **rccardude04** » September 10th, 2005, 2:27 am

Have you tried calling around to other mazda dealerships to see if there's anyone else that might know a little more about the differences? I mean, even if you have to drive an hour or two wouldn't it be worth it to get documented evidence that you got screwed?
-Eric

jschrauwen · Post by **jschrauwen** » September 10th, 2005, 9:37 am

Deimos wrote:i went to mazda and had one of the techs check it, but he said it honestly could still b a ZE w/ DE heads. i don't know what i could get them to put in writting honestly if they can't tell w/o ripping it apart. the dyno will at least say for sure if its 200 hp or not.
at the moment all i really have is a shitload of info from the net (i personally know it to b true, but it's not exactly "official") and from ppl. and if they don't believe me, why would they believe anyone else unless i can bring someone of Mazda authority? Once Uday is back tomorrow, i'll be seeing him and we'll figure out what to do.

Ian, Dyno is not going to do squat. If it's just to see waht kind of rwhp you got than it will not work UNLESS you have gotten your car to some super tuning place and they have worked their MOJO on it, that you've got a super lightened flywheel, a KL68 TB etc, etc etc. If you think you're going to see near 200 hp at the rear wheels your dreaming. Maybe 140 to 150 tops. You need a crapload of stuff in place to see 200rwhp. I thought you knew that. Whatever the dyno says can bee disputed by the installer anyway. That Mazda place don't know their a-- for a hole in the ground. A ZE block with a DE head ... PLEASE!!!!!! A ZE block is a DE block ... they're both the same. It's the heads, cams, IM, TB, these are the makings of a ZE. Plenty of pics and resources in this forum to clearly distinguish DE from ZE wrt TB, IM, heads etc. Don't waste time and money on something that will not fly in the face of the installer. Find another installer place, find a high performance place. For Pete's sake, you're in toronto, there's tone there. Are you trying to convince us or yourself that it's a ZE. Where the heck is Uday for all of this? Bring your camera to Hamilton and take pics of the other ZE heads and yours for reference. Dyno HP stuff proves nothing to the installer. He can easily dismiss any shortcomings, UNLESS he put in writing that this engine will produce "X" amount of HP. Don't think he did that did he. Put the owness back on to the installer and get them to tell you how ZE heads are identified. Get from them clearly what are the actual markings for a ZE head since that's what they advertised to you.
Sorry, getting a little over-worked here.

rccardude04 · Post by **rccardude04** » September 10th, 2005, 10:15 am

jschrauwen wrote:Sorry, getting a little over-worked here. [/color]

But you hit the nail on the head.

Dude, listen to this guy and go take pictures and go to a non-retarded mazda shop and git-r-done.
-Eric

lakersfan1 · Post by **lakersfan1** » September 10th, 2005, 10:40 am

papa roached wrote:is it a curved neck motor? i have heard stories of not all curved neck motors having KL31 heads, at least here in the states the ones pulled from millenias

A Millennia will still have KL31 heads, whereas his heads don't say this.

Gro Harlem · Post by **Gro Harlem** » September 10th, 2005, 5:57 pm

first check your intake manifold.

the top of the throttle body will say "KL31 or KL68" if its a true ZE.

if the manifold is a KL68 (you said curved necK) then you at least have a KLZE intake manifold.

but if the head has KL01-1A1 then someone probably swapped that manifold on and used a shitty DE engine to fool you, but somehow I think this is unlikely.

BTW: u shouldn't have to take the mani off to see the proper engine codes

plain an simple if your head says KL01-xxx then you have a shitty DE

if it says KL31-xxx then its a ze

relisys_3200 · Post by **relisys_3200** » September 10th, 2005, 10:56 pm

he has the correct intake manifold / tb, but his heads for sure say "KL-1A1" and "KL-101"

jschrauwen · Post by **jschrauwen** » September 11th, 2005, 12:41 am

Gro Harlem wrote:the top of the throttle body will say "KL31 or KL68" if its a true ZE.
if the manifold is a KL68 (you said curved necK) then you at least have a KLZE intake manifold.
but if the head has KL01-1A1 then someone probably swapped that manifold on and used a shitty DE engine to fool you, but somehow I think this is unlikely.
BTW: u shouldn't have to take the mani off to see the proper engine codes
plain an simple if your head says KL01-xxx then you have a shitty DE
if it says KL31-xxx then its a ze

Well it just so happens that johnny boy strolls into that shop about 20 minutes before Ian does posing as a perpestive ZE buyer. Manager asks me to follow one of his tech into the warehouse where I find a ZE (very good shape) witha long neck (straight neck) w/ KL68 TB and 5sp. Then theres's a not so clean ZE with the Millinnia IM (KL47) and a KL68 TB w/ATX. I verified both as to having ZE head codes. Of course I play the dumb consumer and ask the dumb questions in an effort to get him to finally say that to recognize a ZE it has to have KL31 1A1 and KL31 101. As far as these numpties are concerned if it's a Mazda motor from their supplier than it's a ZE. They generally go by the IM in most cases. Hard to believe they've been doing this for 10 years and don't have these facts down pat. BTW, I just happened to bring that hard copy (I think you made it Gro) that lists along the top MS8 aka MX6, Eunos 800 akaPre 2000 Millennia's etc, etc to include the DE's of course. Under the headings of the 2 ZE's and the 3 DE's it lists the engine code, HP, Torque, Compression Ratio ...... head codes ...... cam codes ....etc etc. Any way, I pull this out and this tech buys into this also. I needed him to verbally say that a ZE is identified by a head code of KL31 xxx. Of course the boss doesn't want to budge on this. What Ian got was a DE with a Millenia IM and a KL68 TB, plain and simple. Anyway back to the story .... 20 minutes into my dealings with the shop I meet Ian and of course I introduce myself and ask if that's his MX outside. We exchange small talk for a quick minute and he continues doing business with another tech. Later I see him outside and we start to talk not giving the impression to anyone that we know each other. Well the staff and boss sees this and when Ian goes into the shop office he's promptly and sumarily dismissed. I return to that office a minute or so after because I have to make secondary queries about a future ZE purchase and I tell them I am worried that they might make a mistake and put the wrong engine in. These guys are just about ready to loose it and long story short, they're really pissed that they either got cought in a lie or really f*cked up and don't want to come good on their screw-up. They were especially pissed at me for talking to him and said it is very bad business and rude to do that. Ian was standing right there and i asked him being someone i never met before if he was offended or upset with my assistance. He said absolutely not and that it was welcomed. Well these guys are just about to flip out at this point. Ian finally got them to agree that if he can find a Mazda shop to verify that his engine is not a ZE that that is enough for them. They may be a difficult chore considering that it will have to be a Mazda shop that's willing to give a written signed and stamped statement as to the engines pedigree. I told Ian to get at least that and to supplement that with a similar statement from a Ford dealership to verify that it is a DE. That should be ample one saying what it is and another saying what it isn't. Love to see their faces when Ian brings that paperwork down. Uday, you better back him up on this one and be there as a witness. What a bunch of numpties.
Hey Ian, you're a good actor too!!! I love catching people in a lie and watching them squirm.

Selecta · Post by **Selecta** » September 11th, 2005, 12:59 am

Hey Ian,

I am back from DR...so will give you a buzz and we will head down there and see what's going on. I have not had a chance to actually look at my head code (got in later than expected) but will in the morning and let you know.

And I think John is correct it may not be worth going to the dyno...it would be best we tackle the issue without delay.

So call you tomorrow.