under powered cars ( Mazda )

[VizualXTC]

Ok, let's start this fools. HAHAHAHA.<p>Honda is 3 G's. Like I've said before. Grandma's, Groceries, and Gas Milage. Let us do a little comparison shall we? Since we all drive the MX-3, we'll take that car. MX-3 GS. And since 99.999% of the worlds population drives the Civic. Let's take the Civic. I don't care what model because everyone wants a B series engine in their Civic anyway.<p>(stats according to Edmunds.com)
Mazda MX-3 GS $4293
Horsepower: 130 hp Max Horsepower: 6500 rpm Torque: 115 ft-lbs. Max Torque: 4500 rpm<p>Honda Civic EX Coupe $5075
Horsepower: 125 hp Max Horsepower: 6600 rpm Torque: 106 ft-lbs. Max Torque: 5200 rpm<p>Ok, these 2 cars are very similar in horsepower and torque numbers. Within 10 on both. Now, the Civic is lighter than the MX-3 by 202#. This is where torque thrives. With less weight. Less weight means more power because the car doesn't lose as much thru the drive train.<p>Although this should be a close race, who wins??? The GS. Why??? Hmm. Mystery to me. (whispers 'transmission')<p>Ok, now let's mod these little mother fella's.<p>MX-3 KL03 swap Vs Civic B16A swap<p>Engine:
KL03 = $400-$600 <p>B16A = $2000-$3000
Advantage: MX-3<p>Drive Train Mods:
MX-3 = NONE <p>Civic = Transmission
ECU
Half Shafts
Motor Mounts
Etc.
Advantage: MX-3<p>POWER AQUIRED:
MX-3 = 164 Horespower 160 Torque
Civic = 160 Horsepower 125 Torque (ouch)
Advantage: MX-3<p>Looks like the MX-3 took this race<p>MX-3 KLZE swap VS Civic B18C5 Swap (I love this one)<p>Engine:
KLZE = $1000 <p>B18C5 = $5000 (DAYM!)
Advantage: MX-3 (By $4000)<p>Drive Train Mods:
MX-3 = NONE <p>Civic = Transmission
ECU
Half Shafts
Motor Mounts
Etc.
Advantage: MX-3<p>POWER AQUIRED:
MX-3 = 200 Horsepower 180 Torque <p>Civic = 195 Horsepower 156 Torque
Advantage: MX-3<p>Damn, 2 comparable swaps (in the ways of power output, we're not even gunna go into the realm of prices paid) and the MX-3 came out on top on....All 3 catagories. Damn, and I thought Honda's were easy and cheap to get power out of. And don't give me that 'lower torque helps off the line' because if you're running 150Ft.Lbs. of TQ and side step at 3K RPM you're gunna spin the tires. Plain and simple. <p>Now, lets go with the S2000. Cough! Cough! 240HP is an impressive number. I have to admit. But when it peaks at 8300 RPM, that's a little high don't you think? When the KLZE gets peak HP around 6K and shifted by 7K you'll have a higher speed (and be further ahead) by the time that 240HP peaks. And when the KLZE TQ peaks at 4K (speculation I have no real clue, but the K8 peaks around there) then that's more usable power lower in the powerband than the 153 TQ peaking at 7400RPM. SIDE NOTE: by the way, higher torque numbers mean the engine will reach 6500RPM faster than one with a lower torque figure. <p>All this means that by the time the s2000 hits 6500RPM the KLZE will have shifted and be on it's way to peak in the next gear, but the s2000 still has 2000RPM to go before it get's it's peak. Advantage: KLZE.<p>I'm not sayin Honda doesn't make nice engines. If you wanna save gas and drive slow, a honda engine is good to have. If you're into performance, go .......anything else. <p>Also, I'm not saying you can't get high horsepower and torque numbers from a honda engine either. It has been done before....but it will cost you your new born and your right arm to do it, while us in the KL03/KLZE MX-3's have that ammount of horsepower and still have money to actually pay to get into the races.<p>Moral of this story...<p>HONDA'S SUCK!!!!<p>Oh, one more thing. There are some honda engines that have a higher TQ figure than HP. The D15B8 (Civic CX) and the D15A2 (Civic CRX HF) Too bad the HP numbers are 70 and 56 respectively. LMFAO. Do well against a B6 don't ya think? LOL<p>[ September 19, 2003: Message edited by: VizualXTC ]</p>

[OsoSlo z28]

it's a shame you have to compare v6's to 4cyls

[guyaverage]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> I love when people call me ignorant. <hr></blockquote>
Then you must be used to it, there is so much disinformation in your statements about torque it would take all day to set you straight. Torque is FORCE, not MOVEMENT. I can grab a ratchet and apply huge amounts of torque to a bolt all day long without actually producing any work (movement). <p> <blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> Whatever way you look at it, the torque is under powered on the engine, do you understand that?<hr></blockquote><p>Saying a car is underpowered based on comparing the torque to horsepower number spread is nonsense. There are lots of other factors in play that determine how fast a car accelerates and tops out at, like gear ratios, drivetrain losses, tire size, aerodynamics, etc. Go to the google god and type in "torque and horsepower" or "torque vs horsepower", print out every article you can find and you will have enough reading material for your next 550 bathroom visits. You might learn something.<p>At 255HP and only 217 lb/ft torque, at that number spread Rx7s must SUCK. Have you ever talked to anyone that said a 1993 Rx7 was "underpowered"?

[Sean Mandell]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by cre8v mx3:
it's a shame you have to compare v6's to 4cyls <hr></blockquote><p>All I have to say is I am loyal to mazda not because of their 4cyl or v6 engines but for the rx
cars. I am so happy that Mazda spends lots of $$$$$$$$ developing rotary technology as this is Mazda's meal ticket. fact is that Mazda doesn't care about squeezing hp out of there 4cyl's or they would. Thank god for that. The Rotary is by far the better engine to race with and once they perfect it, you will see honda fading away like pokemon.<p>I respect all high hp 4cyl engines, but I cant stand 4cyl's because they are too loud and are not smooth. I can tell you that after owning my 1987 rx7 turbo 2, nothing and I mean nothing will ever run smoother and sound better then the rotary.

[Casino]

um i didnt want this topic to turn out like this when i started it lol.<p>anyway good information boys im learning something at least

[johnnyb]

you know whats seriously underpowered.... a moped

[guyaverage]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr> I can tell you that after owning my 1987 rx7 turbo 2, nothing and I mean nothing will ever run smoother and sound better then the rotary. <hr></blockquote>
Amen to that. My third Rx7 was a T2, the first time I drove it I had a stupid grin from ear to ear a plastic surgeon couldnt remove. Power that smooth has to be felt to be believed. Shame Mazda couldnt have put a 13b in an Mx3 and reincarnated the Rx3. What a car that could have been....

[MadHatter]

That would be insane to see, a Rotary MX-3, I'd pay for an engine swap if it were possible I agree though, nothing beats rotary engines as far as power goes, and what's still amazing is that there are fewer parts to these engines than standard cylinder. Come on Mazda, make us a Rotary MX-3

[mx3TT]

Yeah torque is force, to the wheels. Torque, like Vizual XTC just said, gets you through the gears fast and up to speed quicker, meaning acceleration. Now, if you dont have a lot of torque, you will get up to speed slower but you can still have a high top speed. Who will win, a car with 220hp and 180tq or 220hp and 215tq? Obvious. Why is everyone sticking up for hondas anyway? You cant exactly call them fast.

[guyaverage]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Who will win, a car with 220hp and 180tq or 220hp and 215tq? Obvious. <hr></blockquote>
In the SAME car, yes, the answer IS obvious. In different cars, saying one is automatically faster than the other is asinine because it discounts dozens of other variables. Saying cars are "underpowered" because of a lower torque rating or because the HP to torque numbers are spread is just as bad. Its a blanket statement that doesnt really hold true without looking at LOTS of other variables. <p>I also drove a Honda for 3 years, and it was anything but slow. Bone stock. The "Honda vs. Mazda" war is getting about as boring as the "Chevy vs. Ford" war... Boooorrring.....

[Sean Mandell]

I don't understand this argument cause it seems pretty obvious to me that Honda lacks torque in every engine they make. Honda has nothing better to
do then try to squeeze hp out of small engines. I don't care if they can even squeeze 500hp n/a they will still have 130lbs of torque. which means I have
to rev her up to 20000 rpms to get that 500 hp. <p>Have you ever wondered why they have never produced a factory Turbo car? the reason is that they cant come up with sufficient torque to minimize lag. Any
turboed honda lives only at 6500 and up rpm. Below this and I could run faster.

[Sean Mandell]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by MadHatter:
Come on Mazda, make us a Rotary MX-3 <hr></blockquote>

[mx3TT]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by nvrsrndr:
I don't understand this argument cause it seems pretty obvious to me that Honda lacks torque in every engine they make. Honda has nothing better to
do then try to squeeze hp out of small engines. I don't care if they can even squeeze 500hp n/a they will still have 130lbs of torque. which means I have
to rev her up to 20000 rpms to get that 500 hp. <p>Have you ever wondered why they have never produced a factory Turbo car? the reason is that they cant come up with sufficient torque to minimize lag. Any
turboed honda lives only at 6500 and up rpm. Below this and I could run faster.<hr></blockquote><p>Finally, someone realizes the truth!<p>

[Sean Mandell]

<blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr>Originally posted by MadHatter:
Come on Mazda, make us a Rotary MX-3 <hr></blockquote>
There are rumors that the miata will come with a rotary soon and if mazda wants to build a fwd sport coupe then I don't see why they wouldn't throw a rotary in there. Mazda would love to have all of there cars runnin rotaries but they have to accomodate these crazy smog standards first.

[mx3TT]

I would love to see more rotaries. But you also have to think about the mechanics. Not a lot of people are trained to work on them which sucks. But that would be awesome to have a rotary miata.