performance parts and gains help

maldo · Post by **maldo** » October 1st, 2002, 7:33 pm

Do not do a 3mm overbore. The reason Mazda came out with the 1.8l BP motors was to accomodate the larger pistons to create the extra .2 displacement. This is why the BP is just over an inch longer. The max you can safely go on the 1.6L is 2mm, 1mm is the safest.

marshmallow15 · Post by **marshmallow15** » October 1st, 2002, 10:19 pm

i just got off the phone with carilla and they said they'd make me custom rods for $699 and wiseco said pistons for $799...does that seem too outrageous for custom work? oh and im not ordering them until i decide how to do the porting. im thinking 2mm.

marshmallow15 · Post by **marshmallow15** » October 1st, 2002, 10:56 pm

oh and i just had the throttlebody done at my friend's garage. i can see about 2-3mm of the material left right before it hits the butterfly. he also said something about the swivled butterfly and making it swivel faster so that it opens up faster? anyway, when driving it home, maybe its just me but it seems my idle was a little higher so i adjusted the screw, the pull seems to last from start to the end of mid-power, and the sucking is louder and the intake sound is smoother. acceleration feels same, but i feel it longer. i think it was worth it seeing that it was free for me.

jaydog5678 · Post by **jaydog5678** » October 1st, 2002, 11:04 pm

The piston's seem a little high. I'm using JE pistons for my BP-T engine, which were way cheaper($450). JE makes Weisco...or is it the other way around.

maldo · Post by **maldo** » October 1st, 2002, 11:51 pm

Contact Ross for pistons, they make custom ones at a much better price. Better quality from what I have been hearing as well. Contact Pauter for rods as they will most likely be cheaper and are just as good, if not better than Carillo. <A HREF="http://www.pauter.com" TARGET=_blank>Pauter Machine</A><A HREF="http://www.rosspistons.com" TARGET=_blank>Ross Pistons</A>

Freq2002 · Post by **Freq2002** » October 3rd, 2002, 8:48 pm

The info I have about the overboring the B6 3mm I got from the guys on the Miata forum who have done it and it works just fine. For a daily driver there wouldn't be an issue. I asked coz I was concerend about the overbore. Personaly I'd only go with a 10:1 compression ratio, detonation is a killer, high octane gas prices are just as bad. Was also told that the stock rods are sufficient for the job in most cases, you just want to makes sure you blueprint all the parts if you're gonna do mods like these. A piston kit will cast you alot, but the MR2 F1 pistons are about $60 each with rings & a wristpin.

mazdasly75 · Post by **mazdasly75** » November 7th, 2002, 8:40 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by maldo: I don't recommend the UO pulleys as they remove the factory harmonic balancer. Not only can it cause premature oil pump failure due to cavitation but also crank snout failure. Both can be very expensive repairs, in the neighbourhood of $2000. The vibration isn't too bad if going the N/A route but you set yourself up for disaster for FI applications. The majority of cases have been documented on the DOHC motors but since the blocks/crank/oil pump/pulley all have the same design and come from the same family it isn't worth the risk. Do a port job or lighten your flywheel, only positive results come from those mods. [ September 30, 2002: Message edited by: maldo ]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> It won't hurt the oil pump at all. Or explain me why there's over millions user of UDP, without that pump faillure??Dude, you definatly don't know what is an harmonic. I am currently technician in vibration analyst, on VDB scale at work...An harmonic is, by defination, the echo of a frequency that you could read 1x,2x,3x...of it actual value. This is stable and won't hurt anything, until it would be missbalanced in or both static, dynamic, acceleration... etc. movements. That way you could read, on the spectrum, 2.08x by example, the primarie value and still have a 3x, 4x, 5x correct harmonics. It's a non-sence because, you told the guy to drop the flywheel weight. Did you know both flywheel and pulley are bolted on the crankshaft? The new flywheel weight will change it frequency, so basicaly, the harmonics will change too. Is the new flywheel harmonics will cause oil pump cavities?Also, the pulley is turning at different speed range on the motor. The frequency is constantly changing through all over the rpm curve, keep in mind that the harmonics will too.I made a balanced test on the OEM (cast) pulley , cause I build UDP(on a lathe) by myself and I can tell you that the OEM cast pulley is far more unbalanced than any other lathe made pulley, even if the new UDP isn't balanced.I don't think it has been prooved that those guy you saw with pump faillure or any other break were caused by UDP.You could take 3 differents pulley, OEM, turning at the same rpm speed range and you'd have 3 different frequency/harmonicsUDP are used on over million engines and work great. [img]shrug.gif"%20border="0[/img]

boostedmx · Post by **boostedmx** » November 7th, 2002, 9:16 pm

Crankshafts vibrate with a twisting motion due the torque variation that results as each cylinder fires. This vibration is at its worst at some critical RPM. If you operate the engine at this critical RPM without a harmonic balancer excessive vibration will eventually BREAK THE CRANKSHAFT. Under other circumstances flywheel bolts will loosen.The harmonic balancer acts as a cushion for vibration. Thats why its a BALANCER. Your right harmonics will change. this is the component that helps keep them at a safe level. Unsafe vibrations could also result in incorrect main and rod bearing wear, possibly failure.In the end, the harmonic balancer was designed with the whole rotating assembly in mind. Yes many people have used them and have not had any problems. But, if looked at from a technical point of view its not worth it.As for the oil pump problem, this is a prooven fact. the violent shaking and vibrating without the balancer causes this to happen.And lastly, the piston overbore question. The pistons they have for the 11:1 CR require a 1mm overbore not a 3mm. That over bore would be unsafe for that block. Maldo is right about this. That is why the bp block was designed.[ November 07, 2002: Message edited by: boostedmx ]

tk1138 · Post by **tk1138** » November 8th, 2002, 1:27 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by mazdasly75: It won't hurt the oil pump at all. Or explain me why there's over millions user of UDP, without that pump faillure??Dude, you definatly don't know what is an harmonic. I am currently technician in vibration analyst, on VDB scale at work...An harmonic is, by defination, the echo of a frequency that you could read 1x,2x,3x...of it actual value. This is stable and won't hurt anything, until it would be missbalanced in or both static, dynamic, acceleration... etc. movements. That way you could read, on the spectrum, 2.08x by example, the primarie value and still have a 3x, 4x, 5x correct harmonics. It's a non-sence because, you told the guy to drop the flywheel weight. Did you know both flywheel and pulley are bolted on the crankshaft? The new flywheel weight will change it frequency, so basicaly, the harmonics will change too. Is the new flywheel harmonics will cause oil pump cavities?Also, the pulley is turning at different speed range on the motor. The frequency is constantly changing through all over the rpm curve, keep in mind that the harmonics will too.I made a balanced test on the OEM (cast) pulley , cause I build UDP(on a lathe) by myself and I can tell you that the OEM cast pulley is far more unbalanced than any other lathe made pulley, even if the new UDP isn't balanced.I don't think it has been prooved that those guy you saw with pump faillure or any other break were caused by UDP.You could take 3 differents pulley, OEM, turning at the same rpm speed range and you'd have 3 different frequency/harmonicsUDP are used on over million engines and work great. [img]shrug.gif"%20border="0[/img]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE> 3 different pulleys at the same RPM have the same fundamental frequency. If you test them with just the crank, or just the pulley your ignoring the effects of the uneven touqe from the accsesories and as mentioned above from the pistons themselves.Lightening your flywheel will reduce the moment of inertia for the system. This will increase the significance of uneven tourqes on the crankshaft.I think something got lost in the translation, but saing that stable harmonics won't hurt anything is very wrong. Have you heard of the tacoma narrows bridge, or seen a glass shatter from a loud note, or an unbalanced blank in a lathe, etc? Stable harmonics of measurable amplitude are unbalanced. And the 'harmonics' that don't 'walk' with the fundamental frequency as it changes are this most significant ones to watchout for, as these are the natural resonance frequencies.As to the how can be millions of people with UDPs without failures:1. many engines have either better crankshaft setups, or lower amplitude variances from the engine (more cylinders=smother torque. 2. Statistics, you can use a system for quite a while before small cumulative damage will cause catastrauphic performance. 3. People with this engine HAVE noticed this problem.Cigaretes are used by millions of people too. Millions of smokers DON'T die of smoking related causes. Doesn't mean it's good.

mazdasly75 · Post by **mazdasly75** » November 9th, 2002, 2:48 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>3 different pulleys at the same RPM have the same fundamental frequency <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>Wrong! even 3 different ball bearing 6203 from company such like NTN or SKF won't give the same frequency. Same for the pulley/crankshaft/disk brak/flasher. I analyse vibration for 5 years now with the latest technolgie on the market "VDB". I can bet, my car on this, I know I'd win. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR> Lightening your flywheel will reduce the moment of inertia for the system. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>You're right

When the flywheel absorb energy from a variable driving force, as in case of an engine car, the velocity increase and when this stored energy is given out, the velocity diminushes. When the clutch of that engine encounters a variable resistance in performing its work and consequently the speed of the flywheel is reduced. The total energy that flywheel would give out if brought to a standardstill is given by this formula: .... Wv2... Wv2 E= ----- = ----- .... 2g... 64.32in wich: E=total energy of flywheel, in foot-pounds W=weight of the flywheel rim, in pounds v=velocity at mean radius of the flywheel rim, in feet per second g=acceleration due to gravity=32.*the "2" in Wv2 is the square of Wv.You can do the calcul now

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>many engines have either better crankshaft setups <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I got lost there, I didn't know this thread was about a 4 bagnar (got this by a URL in my e-mail). I can't tell about this. <BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Cigaretes are used by millions of people too. Millions of smokers DON'T die of smoking related causes. Doesn't mean it's good.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>This is stupid, and there's no relation with the topic.----------------------------------------------I made a quick vibration test 3 years ago on my engine (v6 k08). I placed the accelerometer flywheel side for the data base. Result was amazing, I had to correct the data for each frequency cause the idle variance (took me 16 hours lol) with that data, I could read the number of ball bearing inner/outside pass, for both side of the crankshaft bearing. I was able to say the exactly lenth of both alternator and water pump belt. I also would have been able, with lot of hours work, to find the exact opening in inch for each valves (cause you know that a 0.300" lift won't open that much due to the HLA lost.)[ November 09, 2002: Message edited by: mazdasly75 ]

maldo · Post by **maldo** » November 9th, 2002, 3:33 pm

The bottom line is the UDPs don't work well with the B6 motors, especially those that are Pre '91 1/2. The Unorthodox pulleys remove the harmonic balancer, in turn, putting a lot of stress on the short nose crank. The thickness of the new pulley is also a problem, it is required that you source a set of longer bolts to hold it on as the factory bolts are too short and can come undone quite easily. For more info on anything B series related, go to <A HREF="http://members.aol.com/solomiata/index.html" TARGET=_blank>Solomiata</A>

tk1138 · Post by **tk1138** » November 9th, 2002, 6:02 pm

Chris is right about the general point.I have to make some comments though. 1. energy stored in a rotating object has nothing to do with g, it is equal to Inertial moment times rotational velocity squared. K=Iv^2. Inirtia is equal to the sum of the mass times it's distance from the axis of rotation squared. I=intigral(m*r^2,0,inf) 2. maybe you're misunderstanding fundamental frequency with resonant frequency. The driving force determins the fundamental frequency=1/(shortest period between two regions in which behavior is the same). The resonance frequency is one at which the amplitude of motion is the greatest for the same driving frequency.3. The cigarette info was an analogy to your question about how millions of people can use something without having problems, and it still be bad. It's not an exact analogy, but...4. How high did your RPMS for the vibration tests go? Was it above 6k? was it high enough to detect if cavitation would occur at all operational rpm ranges? was it on a similar water pump, at similar frequencies, with similar torque variation?Anyway we should probably take this somewhere else to continue, so post in the general MX-3 forum if you wan't.

mazdasly75 · Post by **mazdasly75** » November 9th, 2002, 8:21 pm

<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:<HR>Originally posted by maldo: The bottom line is the UDPs don't work well with the B6 motors, especially those that are Pre '91 1/2. The Unorthodox pulleys remove the harmonic balancer, in turn, putting a lot of stress on the short nose crank. The thickness of the new pulley is also a problem, it is required that you source a set of longer bolts to hold it on as the factory bolts are too short and can come undone quite easily. For more info on anything B series related, go to <A HREF="http://members.aol.com/solomiata/index.html" TARGET=_blank>Solomiata</A><HR></BLOCKQUOTE>I can't disagree with you, like I said above. I'm sorry I didn't know it was about a 4 cylinder b series engine.[ November 09, 2002: Message edited by: mazdasly75 ]

Majin Vegeta · Post by **Majin Vegeta** » November 10th, 2002, 9:23 pm

WAIT! if i have the UR UDP installed on my car, i should remove it?

Casino · Post by **Casino** » November 13th, 2002, 9:48 pm

ok easy dudes lol where is a good place that could port my headers for me , and should i follow the same guidlines as with the SOHC because i have the DOHC ?

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performance parts and gains help

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