Found a few non Ethanol gas stations

[Ryan]

...... I don't know whats going on in here, but your ZE doesn't need 91.

[SuperK]

Well, keeping back on track, I asked jeeves and he said non-ethanol gas is best.

[Daninski]

Coupled with no respect for elders, indoro, what are you waiting for? I expect you to use charmin!

Yeah, I can see that. You're grounded.
Either way, I use Angel soft. I identify with the baby in the bag.

Your both wimps. I use scotch brite, really takes care of those nasty tag nuts. Except the next day after suicide wings then it's toilet paper with a flame retardant.

[Nd4SpdSe]

My mileage was shitty with 87, but I really only tried maybe 2-3 tanks of it ever during the 100'000kms I put in my ZE. I pretty much religiously ran Sonoco 94, but never lower than 91. It was said long ago that the 10:1 ZE needed 91 or higher (I think it came from a Japanese manual and converted to RON to AKI). Like I've said many times to make me sound old; this was back in the day when ours ZE's got 30+mpg, we all ran 91 or better in our cars.

Octane isn't about how much energy is in the fuel, but it's the anti-knock index. The higher the number, the more aggressive the motor can run, pending it's designed to take advantage of it.

you know as well as I that straight gas has more btu's than methanol nor ethanal contaminated fuel.

Meanwhile, gasoline with 10% ethanol has an energy density of 33.6 MJ/L, which is 0.119% lower than "straight" gas

Nice! Also you get a calculated 2.9% performance increase by going from a 9:1 compression to a 10:1 compression. (what happens in real life is different too, especially with each motor)

You can get into crazy math figureing octane levels, compression ratio, lost loss in the fuel vs power gained in the compression, than including fuel economy figures in power efficiency of motor and the extra power gained and should be extra mileage gained vs the cost of the difference in the fuel.

Than you have to do the math for each individual motor since all react differently and use different technologies, eg: SkyActiv. You also get cars like my buddy's old V6 Accord gained 20hp by using high-octane.

This could get CRAZY in math!

[SuperK]

I want a V6 skyactiv engine in my MX-3
I hope they make a v6 version.

[_-Night-Shade-_]

I guess that depends if your engine anti knock sensor is constantly retarding your timing because of the lower octane fuel. Your injectors stay cleaner and you get to experience the pride and ego boost of standing at the pump smiling at all the other regualar users while you pump 'the good stuff'.

Lol where did you get that theory from? The ECU doesn't know what kind of octane you're using; there is no "octane-sensor" in our cars. It only retards when there is engine knock. And actually ethanol and other alcohols help to clean the fuel system, that's why they're found in fuel injector cleaners, octane boosters (because that's what ethanol is), and fuel stabilizers. Definitely the pride and ego boost are the only valid points

[Daninski]

I guess that depends if your engine anti knock sensor is constantly retarding your timing because of the lower octane fuel. Your injectors stay cleaner and you get to experience the pride and ego boost of standing at the pump smiling at all the other regualar users while you pump 'the good stuff'.

Lol where did you get that theory from? The ECU doesn't know what kind of octane you're using; there is no "octane-sensor" in our cars. It only retards when there is engine knock. And actually ethanol and other alcohols help to clean the fuel system, that's why they're found in fuel injector cleaners, octane boosters (because that's what ethanol is), and fuel stabilizers. Definitely the pride and ego boost are the only valid points

Idiot, Moron, Duffus (I meant that in a nice way ) read my post for gods sake man. I said if your engine Anti Knock sensor is constantly retarding your timing. 'Gee Dan why does the anti knock sensor retard my timing???' 'Well Igor, because your cheap regular fuel is starting to predetonate and the anti knock sensor senses this. It then Retards your timing helping to prevent this predetonation'. Then when your timing is retarded you loss performance and fuel mileage.

[_-Night-Shade-_]

I guess that depends if your engine anti knock sensor is constantly retarding your timing because of the lower octane fuel. Your injectors stay cleaner and you get to experience the pride and ego boost of standing at the pump smiling at all the other regualar users while you pump 'the good stuff'.

Lol where did you get that theory from? The ECU doesn't know what kind of octane you're using; there is no "octane-sensor" in our cars. It only retards when there is engine knock. And actually ethanol and other alcohols help to clean the fuel system, that's why they're found in fuel injector cleaners, octane boosters (because that's what ethanol is), and fuel stabilizers. Definitely the pride and ego boost are the only valid points

Idiot, Moron, Duffus (I meant that in a nice way ) read my post for gods sake man. I said if your engine Anti Knock sensor is constantly retarding your timing. 'Gee Dan why does the anti knock sensor retard my timing???' 'Well Igor, because your cheap regular fuel is starting to predetonate and the anti knock sensor senses this. It then Retards your timing helping to prevent this predetonation'. Then when your timing is retarded you loss performance and fuel mileage.

Dan we all know that in your head you have your magical idea how things work but that's just not how they are in reality
If your knock sensor retards your timing you would get Code 5 for it and that's a memorized code and I have never ever had it in my life and I use "cheap" 87 octane ragular gas =)
I'm getting better fuel economy than you so what does that say? I think you need to worry about your setup and not the fuel you buy lol.

[Daninski]

Well here's more people with the same verifiable mind set. Only someone who hasn't done his home work would call this factual information a "magical idea how things work".
1. http://www.toyotanation.com/forum/185-f ... ilage.html
2.http://www.obd-codes.com/p0326

Anyway I'm sure you can do your own home work and send me an apology and Beer once your finished. Then do this test to make sure you have a the proper understanding of what an anti knock sensor does. http://www.autoshop101.com/forms/h38.pdf

Finally, why would Mazda tell the ECU to post a code when every thing is working as designed? Now your really making no sense. If the Knock sensor senses an abnormally hard knock, one that can't be corrected yes you will then get a code.

Oh and unless your getting more than 450kms a tank your not getting better mileage than me.

[_-Night-Shade-_]

Finally, why would Mazda tell the ECU to post a code when every thing is working as designed?

Because that's how it works. If you actually took the time to look it up instead of reading Toyota forums you'd know that.

Oh and unless your getting more than 450kms a tank your not getting better mileage than me.

I am.

Sooooooooo I like any European beer, have it ready for next time I'm at your place

[SuperK]

I'm loving these good-natured under-the-belt blows you all are dealing each other. I'm always thinking, "oooh, did he take it too far? what happens next?" then BAM, there's an awesome comeback.

[Daninski]

I'm loving these good-natured under-the-belt blows you all are dealing each other. I'm always thinking, "oooh, did he take it too far? what happens next?" then BAM, there's an awesome comeback.

Unless you have some thing mean spirited or a totally misinformed statement to say back off.

Ok I'm bowing out of this. No wonder the Germans lost against the Russians, when you have a race of people this bull headed how can you win. Next time you come to my place you better bring a can of whoop azz cuz your going to need it.

Now for the Russian National Athem;

Russia – our holy nation,
Russia – our beloved country.
A mighty will, great glory –
Yours given for all time!

Chorus:

Be glorious, our free Fatherland,
Age-old union of fraternal peoples,
Bullheaded wisdom given by our forebears!
Be glorious, our country! We are proud of you!

From the southern seas to the polar lands
Spread are our forests and fields.
You are unique in the world, one of a kind –
Native land protected by God!

Chorus

Wide spaces for dreams and for living
Are opened for us by the coming years
Our loyalty to our Fatherland gives us strength.
Thus it was, thus it is our bull headedness will be!

Chorus

[Ryan]

Still don't know whats going on,

but our knock sensor only comes into play at low RPM, under high ignition advance (high TPS) or actual predetonation(when it will throw the code? it doesn't for doing its normal job at low rpm (that is, senses knock, retards, knock gone, awesome (and yes this is two nested brackets))).

If your advanced ignition timing is causing knock, then you need to adjust your timing to suit your octane (depends on burn rate of fuel, which is pretty much the same, but there may be a difference)

Actual detonation has nothing to do with the spark plug. This occurs when your engine is very hot, and very high compression, and the only difference octane will make is at what level of heat and compression the fuel starts igniting without the plug.

[Daninski]

Still don't know whats going on,

but our knock sensor only comes into play at low RPM, under high ignition advance (high TPS) or actual predetonation(when it will throw the code? it doesn't for doing its normal job at low rpm (that is, senses knock, retards, knock gone, awesome (and yes this is two nested brackets))).

If your advanced ignition timing is causing knock, then you need to adjust your timing to suit your octane (depends on burn rate of fuel, which is pretty much the same, but there may be a difference)

Actual detonation has nothing to do with the spark plug. This occurs when your engine is very hot, and very high compression, and the only difference octane will make is at what level of heat and compression the fuel starts igniting without the plug.

Thank you Ryan for stating the obvious. Hold on to your lug nuts people Mr Moderator is here to set the record straight. Your statement about "Actual detonation" is rudimentary at best. Carbon build up on pistons or valves can cause this as well as well as engine oil and engine condition.
Ok I think my all time popularity has just reached epic proportions so I'll bid you all a due. Ryan, yes I was kidding but not about your rudimentary explanation.

[mikeinaus]

why do people keep thinking higher octane = more energy in the gas?the octane rating is a scale based on the amount of retardants in the fuel. its purpose is to slow down combustion to stop knock from forming in higher compression (ie hotter combustion chamber temperatures). knock is unwanted ignition of fuel/air at an unwanted time. that is usually caused by hotter then normal combustion temperatures, when the fuel ignites from the compression/heat (similar to diesel) rather then the spark plugs. it makes no sense for a higher octane fuel to give better mileage then lower octane in an engine designed around low octane fuel. unless your ecu can take advantage of the fuel and advance the timing, the "hidden" power in higher octane fuel is going to waste. from a purely ignition standpoint its harder to ignite higher octane fuel, that is the fundamental reason why its possible to squeeze more power from it, when its designed into the programming of the ecm.

with all of the being said, gas companies use better quality additives in the high octane fuel. its these additives which can increase mileage on cars that are not engineered for the higher octane fuel. with all things being equal starting with the same fuel and adding an octane booster to a sample so your left with one liter of 87 octane and one liter of 94 octane, in an engine designed for 87 octane, the 87 octane will produce slightly more power and get better fuel mileage then the 94. in reality, because of the additives this fact goes out of the window.

gas companies put these additives in the premium fuel to further the myth that higher octane = more power and better mileage, to make more profit. there's also a psychological element to how they name the ratings. for example; i love my car, i want to take care of it i better and not pollute it with "regular" fuel, i have to buy "premium" because i dont want to be cheap...

interesting fact i learned in class recently, cars will not run on pure unmodified gasoline, or they wont run for very long if they do. the additives are what make the fuel stable and usable in internal combustion engines. gasoline was originally an unwanted byproduct of "cracking" crude oil and was disposed of as a waste product before it was used as a fuel.