Engineers Club of MX-3.com!

[Sleeper6]

Basically Im working on getting enough parts together for a proper ITB setup on a KL. What Im trying to figure out is the best way to change from the rectangular ports to a round port for a bike throttlebody and roughly the best size to scale up too. I have a friend that works on bikes who is willing to help me source the right size tbs but he needs to now an approximate size as well as I need it too be able to model a mounting bracket so it can get milled. I guess the two main questions are is there a proper formula for converting from a square runner to a round one an what type of transitions are needed combined with what is the maximum size tb that should be used given the restriction at the head port.

[Ryan]

Google should be able to answer all those questions. The transition from square port can be done through a machined plate, a rapid prototyped plate, or hand made plate from some sort of high heat polymer. All of the the materials cost a decent amount of coin.

The length of the stack should be easily calcuable from somewhere on Google.

The best actual shape of the transition (length, etc) would be the work of a flow sim or a flow bench.

I'll be using a rapid prototyped plate for my app this spring.

[Daninski]

As far as cars go, yeah I have a better understanding of the automotive physics and mechanics than some people studying engineering out there. You can teach yourself anything these days, the difference between that and going to school for it is that you get a fancy piece of paper, for the most part.

Honestly, I can see why people took this as a jab... Still, trying to justify it just adds insult to injury Igor.

It's the mark of a wise man to admit a mistake. You can't get past what you can't admit, and I know you are better than that.

Ha, Igor may be smart but he's not old enough to be wise yet. He's cocky, self assured, at times arrogant and at times very helpful (hmm sounds like me when I was young ). I'd give him a few more years to be wise.

[Nd4SpdSe]

Give us a example of "stuck on the math".
They also get bored and over-engineer things beyond practicality?

No I can't, I don't keep records of those things, and I really haven't spoken to engineers in a regular basis in quite a few years. Used to work under an engineer when I was in the US (he was Canadian too fyi), we needed one to be able to work in the US. I had many lenghtly discussions with him. Sleeper6 said it best

Ive given up on ever proving an engineer wrong, in the end all your doing is proving a different engineer right.

I've owned him many times, but in the end, he wasn't wrong, just he thoughts weren't ideal or really feasible/cost worthy.

[Josh]

You're talking about the handful of people in recorded history? Yeah, sure, some of the most. They're also usually geniuses.

Except they were self taught geniuses and created most of the principles that you use. My grandmother for instance is what some would call a child genius if you want to describe it that way. Finished her degree by the age of 16.. In the 30's I would say that's rather impressive, but she wasn't an engineer, so by your standards perhaps not a genius.

But there's 6-odd billion people on the planet, and by staggering majority, the educated ones are smarter than the uneducated.

That's what an engineer would say, relating it to some kind of numerical statistic. But what I would say is your assumption is flawed. Because out of that 6-odd billion people how many have access to books or any kind of greater learning, let alone electricity or running water. The many that were never given a fair shake, or an opportunity to do so.

Sure you may be smarter as in "Book Smart" you know a lot about one subject maybe even several, I am not trying to doubt your intelligence by any means, and sure you can speak some jargon that most won't know. but if you take it back to the roots, do you really think that because you are going to college to be an engineer that you are in fact smarter than those who didn't? In a nut shell that is what you are saying, and that's pretty bold. Perhaps about the subject you studied, I would never challenge you on that, but that only makes you smarter in that area of expertise. If I needed advice in that area, you or someone with the same background is who i would go to for advice or help.

If you think your own brain can come up with ideas just as good as the collaboration of lifetimes of brains over many generations, you're either super pompous, or just plain stupid.

I kind of take offence to this Ryan. Really I never attacked you or anything you said, and for writing it I kind of think your pompous in you're assumption. I simply stated that some of the smartest people are uneducated (which is 100% true). But that all only depends on what you consider smart, they are only "uneducated" in the the way that you and other engineers that I know look at as being educated.

Definition of Education;
1. the act or process of imparting or acquiring general knowledge, developing the powers of reasoning and judgment, and generally of preparing oneself or others intellectually for mature life.
2. the act or process of imparting or acquiring particular knowledge or skills, as for a profession... yah I pulled it from google because I am uneducated.

See what gets me is you assume people are not educated because they may not agree or know or be able to talk to what you may be referencing. Where it may be possible that they can be educated in other areas besides yours. Then they get slammed for doing some quick research online to be able to have a point in what you may be talking about. I may not be able to talk to you in length about what ever engineering degree you are working towards, but I can talk to about creating programs and user interfaces, as that is what I went to school for. I can talk to you about C++ and HTML coding. I can also talk to you about drag, lift, performance, loads, and basic aero principles as I went to school for that as well, I am a rotorcraft pilot. Uneducated used to be a term that most Elementary and High School drop outs used, its funny how in the last couple of decades that's changed.

[MrMazda92]

Josh, I can understand how that may have appeared offensive, but he's 100% correct in the line you quoted... Literally no doubt about it.

I don't care how smart or educated or intelligent(the words being bandied about here) anybody on this board, or anywhere else is. If they weren't taught by somebody else, and therefor educated, they would not know a fraction of what they know today.

The reason humans have advanced throughout our existence is simple, we can record and store information. You can only learn so much in a lifetime, but write it down... it's there forever. Those you mentioned who created higher level mathematics, who were geniuses, and dedicated their lives to their study... They did create them, and it took them lifetimes to accomplish those feats.

Today, lesser minds can understand and utilize the same math, and take it even farther(instead of taking 20 years to understand what is already common knowledge, they can apply said common knowledge elsewhere).

I've been blessed with VERY intelligent friends and family members, and am a 3rd generation college educated(5th on my father's side) man. Out of my entire family, about 80% in the last 3 generations have made it not only through highschool, but through college as well. I'll be the 4th out of my siblings, leaving only my little sister(she's a freshman in college). Don't get me wrong, NONE of us had it handed to us at all, I'm in school on financial aid and very limited loans(subsidized while I am still enrolled), working part time and taking 18 credits a term to fast-track my dual major.

It doesn't mean that you can not make a life without college; Hell, the richest person I have ever met didn't pass the 10th grade in Highschool. He has college educated employees who are at his beck and call, because he took a passion for nature, and a drive to succeed, and built a hell of a business. He's rolling in 7 figures annually, and he didn't feel the need to go back for a GED even. Should he? That's up to him.

As Ryan stated, the odds are stacked unbelievably against you, or anybody, succeeding to that extent without a college education. That should be simple to see... If you don't have an education, most businesses won't even hire you. If you aspire to flip burgers, you even need a highschool diploma(or GED) in my state.

[Daninski]

I can also talk to you about drag, lift, performance, loads, and basic aero principles as I went to school for that as well, I am a rotorcraft pilot.

I have to assume engineering means using a scientific approach, mathmatics, charts, graphs, what ever. If it doesn't work on paper or can't be explained it won't work so don't even try it but even with a solid engineering education some things can't be readily explained.
Example;
A helicopter is flying at 100 mph. The rotor head is spinning at say,,100mph so the advancing blade (relative to flight) is actually flying at 200 mph and generating lift while the retreating blade is traveling at 0 mph and generating no lift. Now these speeds are of course simplified for ease of explanation but an engineer examining this would have to conclude that the helicopter cannot fly under these conditions or at least would roll over in flight and give up on the idea because he is educated to believe this. This phenomena by the way is know as 'dissymmetry of lift' and for some reason helicopters seem to fly just fine. I will say that the Father of Rotory Flight was indeed and engineer,,,go figure. hmmm

[Nd4SpdSe]

Wouldn't bumblebees fit in that category?

[Ryan]

"You can see farther when you stand on the shoulders of your forefathers"


Josh, I'm just going to address you here.


Your grandmother is totally what I'd consider a genius. I think you're miunderstanding me. I meant that there are a handful of people (educated or not) who are exceedingly intelligent. This was a remark for Igor, who was saying that there are some non-educated people who are smarter than educated people. I was just saying as a rule, thats untrue, the educated ones are smarter than the uneducated.


Next, I don't want to mix up the two meanings of intelligent here. The act of educating yourself does not make you more intelligent. There people who grasp things, who can put together coherent and original thought, those are the intelligent ones. I agree education doesn't change this about a person. You can totally have a degree and still be dumber than a brick s--- house.


The other meaning, whatever word you use, I mean to describe someone who can teach you something, someone who knows more than the average person, not because they're intelligent (not even necessary...) This is a product of education and/or experience.

I was talking about the second kind in that second quote.


I also want to add that "education" is super overdone these days. Everyone and their dog has some sort of degree/diploma or whatever now. College is the new high school, IMO. In the same breath, I have little to no respect for abstract education with no obvious practical applications (I know a person with a degree in Norse Mythology...)

Again, I don't mean to attack you guys. I just don't think that some guy off the street can't out-engineer an engineer. Don't start saying you know more about cars than a mechanic, or even an engineer, just because you've worked on some. Don't say that you have better ideas than someone else, because YOU can't determine why it was done that way.


Sorry this isn't a very well constructed response. Kinda all over the place.


I guess in the end you have to take s--- like this on a case to case basis. There are savants, generally intelligent people, educated retards, non-educated retards, and several different intelligences.

Just don't be telling me that your Google educated self has a better idea than an engineer who has been working for years in his or her field. Thats simply outrageous. Go and tell your Doctor that you know whats wrong with you and what you should be medicated with, because you Googled it. They'll mentally strangle you.

That analogy is perfect, the only difference is people have no illusions that they understand a doctors profession.

[Daninski]

Wouldn't bumblebees fit in that category?

Kinda but only if they were engineered,,,yes,,,by God himself, the Chief Engineer.

[Josh]

Just don't be telling me that your Google educated self has a better idea than an engineer who has been working for years in his or her field. Thats simply outrageous. Go and tell your Doctor that you know whats wrong with you and what you should be medicated with, because you Googled it. They'll mentally strangle you.

That analogy is perfect, the only difference is people have no illusions that they understand a doctors profession.

Great points, I think we on track at pretty much one and the same. One thing that is annoying are the people who say "but Wikipedia says"... On the doctors I might disagree just a smidge, their degree says that they are "Supposed" to know what they are doing, but alas we all are human and make mistakes and have different opinions. Where an Engineer at least has a general guide to follow with mathematics to reduce the amounts of mistakes.

See that's why I have educated people around me I go to my father in-law who has many degrees one of which a Ph.D. in Mechanical Engineering from MIT, who helps me figure out the proper mathematic and mechanical efficiencies when I build an engine . He can design them all day to optimum HP and stress and fracture loads, but to trouble shoot one is not a strong suit.

[Ryan]

Indeed I think we're on the same page.

I do strive to admit when I'm wrong, if you can come up with a plausible argument.

I live in a blue collar area, and Engineers are usually disrespected for their typical "works on paper" approach. I've worked construction for 4 years, and other labour jobs, etc etc.

When I tell those people that I'm in engineering, they're usually super glad that someone with actual hands on experience is getting into the field, since I know what it is about engineers that frustrate them, and hopefully I can avoid it.

One particular example is a master cabinet maker that I worked with one summer. Super intelligent, but non educated guy, about 60. I have a lot of respect for him. He knew his trade inside and out, and he was a regular Macgyver. He came up with some super awesome solutions to problems, but couldn't tell me why or how it would work (geometry, physics). Together we were nearly unstoppable



Agree again on the human error part. My would-be sister was killed by an inattentive doctor...

Engineers on math errors, but they can kill hundreds or thousands of people at once if they're not careful.

[MrMazda92]

Pfffft, Not even a sarcastic reply from Dan ;(

*bows out of the thread gracefully*

I know when my role is done

[Juans_93_MX3]

Give us a example of "stuck on the math".
They also get bored and over-engineer things beyond practicality?

No I can't, I don't keep records of those things, and I really haven't spoken to engineers in a regular basis in quite a few years. Used to work under an engineer when I was in the US (he was Canadian too fyi), we needed one to be able to work in the US. I had many lenghtly discussions with him. Sleeper6 said it best

Ive given up on ever proving an engineer wrong, in the end all your doing is proving a different engineer right.

I've owned him many times, but in the end, he wasn't wrong, just he thoughts weren't ideal or really feasible/cost worthy.

Im curious, but what exactly did you and this engineer do for work?

Engineers are needed EVERYWHERE even places they shouldnt be in. One of the professors in the business college was talking to my ME class about how MEs are hired just because people assume they can solve anything. Even GOOGLE hires MEs.
Maybe that was your case?

It can also be that many MEs out there dont have hands on experience.

Theoretical side: I also know a guy at my university (working for his PHD) who once worked for a company that had a bunch of mechanical engineers who couldnt do PIPE FLOW problems.
This company needed to run very long pipes of water powered by pumps and they needed to know what the smallest and most economic diameter pipes they could use (not neglecting pipe friction, flow characteristics, couplers, bends, etc). while still being able to power the water with the pump.
I guarantee you that you will not own any ME on this.

Hands on side: I know a girl who works with a bunch of MEs at a vitamin factory. She owns the MEs.

So really there are two sides to it. MEs are needed because they know so much about theory. But when they dont have the hands on experience than they will get owned by ppl like you.
Depends where you are working tho.

[Ryan]

I'm becoming an ME, and we're doing pipe flow right now. But I know what you mean.

Becoming an engineer doesn't make you know everything, it just gives you a rough idea of what can be known, so you have a better idea of how to approach a problem. Basically you're learning how to learn, if that makes any sense.