Ryan is taking on all of Probetalk

[Ryan]

I started this thread over there with good intentions, but I'm subject to the wrath of all the other know-it-alls on there. Not that it bothers me. Arguing with an engineer is like mud wrestling with a pig

Just looking for more feedback, if and when you have time time to comment...

http://forums.probetalk.com/showthread.php?t=1701304712

[_-Night-Shade-_]

Arguing with an engineer is like mud wrestling with a pig

Don't let it get to your head. Just cause you're studying engineering doesn't mean you know everything, especially when it comes to cars. Practical experience always overcomes theoretical knowledge, and nothing beats the experience the PT guys have. Most of the developments have come from them. Learn to be humble. It's just like there are plenty of mechanics out there that don't know some sh*t about cars even though they are mechanics. No one cares about where you come from, it's the present that counts. And as it stands, most of the monstrous builds have come from PT so even if I had to make an educational guess, which I don't need to, I would say that chances are most of those guys know what they're talking about.

[mitmaks]

Don't bite more than you can chew.

[Ryan]

I respect knowledge, I honestly do. I also sure as s--- don't know everything.

What I don't respect is "I saw this, so it must be that, end of story".

If they can convince me using something tangible, or at least solid, (I am reasonable...), then I'm 100% willing to admit I'm wrong.

I lose my temper a little bit, and thats a big error on my part .

The mud wrestling thing implies that I enjoy it... Its more of a personality thing than an engineer thing, it just fits me. I'm more than happy to read whatever reference you give me in order to understand what you're trying to get across.

Its just that when the angry guy posts a reference about low reynolds number fluids acting unlike ideal fluids (cavitating during low speed shear flow) in a conversation about engine oil inside engines, I realize that he's grasping at straws to rationalize himself.

If I'm making any arrogant mistakes, please inform me... I didn't mention my background in that thread whatsoever. I'm just bringing stuff up as I understand it, and trying to keep it civil and as positive as online arguments get.

I've had an old mechanic guys laugh at my face because I think running tap water in a motor is inferior to running distilled or reverse osmosis'd water. Just because you're old and practical, doesn't mean you know everything either.

[Inodoro Pereyra]

If I'm making any arrogant mistakes, please inform me...
................../...................
I've had an old mechanic guys laugh at my face because I think running tap water in a motor is inferior to running distilled or reverse osmosis'd water. Just because you're old and practical, doesn't mean you know everything either.

You mean other than wasting your time at Probetalk?

If somebody explains something to you on technical terms, he's grasping at straws, but if he does so on purely practical terms, he doesn't convince you, hence, he doesn't know what he's talking about. So, exactly, how should one explain you something, for you to accept when you're wrong?

By the way, I read part of your post (not all of it), and a few of the replies. I think your first mistake was to start a thread pretty much like a tutorial, when you're clearly not sure about the points you're trying to make. Some of the points you made on that thread are right, some are not. However, knowing the general attitude of most PT members, right or wrong, I'm not surprised when they felt offended by some newbie trying to school them. You have to remember we all know you here, and we know you have a pretty good grasp of mechanics. They don't.

[Ryan]

You're right, Inodoro

In the beginning I wasn't sure how to get my point across, but I think I've made it clearer as it progressed.

I'd accept his reference if it was valid, but its just not so, that the earths molten core behaves like engine oil. That is grasping at straws. If his reference proved that some compounds similar to oil at viscosity similar to engine oil, at similar temperatures, spontaneously cavitated in a positive pressure region, then I'd be totally impressed and disproved. But comparing apples and oranges doesn't do it for me.

And his yammer about pressure drops (ignoring conservation of mass, a simple idea) doesn't prove anything either.

Thats the neat thing about most of science and physics, its pretty much regulated by laws and equations, opinion doesn't have much of a say (unless you misunderstand the math, which I'm totally capable of doing, I hate math)

I'd like to know what points were wrong, I'm honestly looking to set up something true and reliable here. I took down the rotor thing pretty well, no? I know that was a touchy point with you

And its just the one or two angry guys so far, and I think mac1 was just offended by a misunderstanding... All I meant to say with the sheep comment was people who hear something, and then stick to their guns about it without being able to back it up with their own reasoning. Sticking to ideas because they like them. That is a giant waste of human intellect... sheep.

[Inodoro Pereyra]

Al I can say is, I have been on PT for a short while, and, knowledge and attitude wise, they couldn't possibly hold a candle to this forum.

Like I said, I didn't bother to read the whole thread, so I can't comment on specific posts. But, knowing the prevalent attitude in there, it's not surprising the thread would turn nasty...

Now you're gonna make me work.
Ok, here we go...

2. It's true shimming the oil pump relief valve won't affect the oil pressure at operating temp. However, it's not true that's all that matters. Shimming the pump may increase oil pressure on start up, making the oil reach the top of the engine sooner. That can be a major issue, on a tweaked engine.

6. The KJ supercharger doesn't fit the KJ either, it just sits on top of it, and has no direct connection to the engine (other than the belt, that is). Outfitting a KL with a KJ supercharger should be no more work than using an Eaton M62 unit.

7. There's absolutely no relation whatsoever between octane rating and energy density on a fuel. However, higher octane gas tend to have a slightly higher energy density than lower octane gas, not because of a technical matter, but because of a commercial one: since higher octane gas is more expensive, oil companies tend to use better recipes for their high octane gas, first, because they can afford it, and second, because that's an incentive for people to buy the more expensive product.

10. Larger injectors may produce more power, on an otherwise stock engine, if you provide a way for the ECU to ignore the oxygen sensors. That's because of many factors: first, because atomized gas is much heavier than air, so it has a higher inertia. That means that, for a purely stoichiometric ratio, the final A/F ratio inside the cylinder will be lean, just because the atomized gas didn't have a chance to get into the cylinder, before the valves closed. Using a richer mixture will minimize that problem. The downside of that is that now your emissions will go straight to hell. Second, the fuel will always be colder than the intake air, and the act of atomizing it lowers it's temperature even more. That, in turn, lowers the intake air temperature, when the gas is injected. Using a little more gas will effectively cool down the mixture, allowing you to take steps to further increase the engine's power delivery. If you feel like doing some research, you will probably be able to find race car engines can reach A/F ratios as low as 5:1.
The first point, however, does not apply to direct injected engines.
There are other minor advantages, but those 2 are the biggest ones.

15. What you say is true, but you neglected to say it's almost impossible to make an engine knock over 4K rpm.

On the rest (I won't comment on the brakes thing ) you were pretty much spot on. But then again, seriously, going to PT to look for human intellect seems like a waste of time...

[Ryan]

Thanks, Inodoro.

You're completely right about the oil reaching the top sooner with more PSI in the system at a startup, I'll throw that in there, but its also a compromise with that extra PSI in there... the system wasn't designed for it, and who knows where the yeild point of some of those gallies is.

Also, apparently some people are reaching that relief point at operating temperature, but it beats me how. If you do max out the PSI in the system at operating temp, using the proper oil that is, then shimming the pump may be for you.

If you do the research on the KJ supercharger, you'll find its integral to the manifold. This is what makes it much harder than a M62 to fit.


I understand what you're saying with the octane not effecting the energy density of the entire mix, but if you look JUST at the octane rating, all the rest of the compounds staying the same, there would be a slight difference. But the thing is, thats not how gas companies roll.
Its still true that its the best choice to use the lowest octane, highest quality fuel your car handles, that provides the best fuel milage compromise.


The ECU ignores O2's at WOT, conveniently enough.

running rich does indeed lower intake charge temps and combustion temps, allowing you to run higher compression, etc.

But we were talking about throwing 320cc injectors on an otherwise stock KL. That won't help you, which is the point that point was making.


I made my motor knock over 5k Well, it wasn't knocking... my actual ignition timing was whack.

[Inodoro Pereyra]

Well, I would bet they either are using a much thicker oil, or made some other stupid mod to the system. Reaching top oil pressure at operating temperature is way too high...

You may be right about the yield point of the oil galleys' walls. But, then again, this mod has been done by lots of people (albeit for the wrong reasons), and nobody reported any problems, so you could say, with some certainty, you should be ok. Of course, not all the castings are the same, but that's a risk you have to take with almost anything you do to the engine.

I don't need to research the KJ at all: last year, I had to swap one, on a Milly S (the worst PITA I ever had swapping an engine). Not only the supercharger is not integral to the Im, but it's actually not connected to the IM at all. Even worse: the KJ does not have an IM.
The supercharger bolts on to the (2) intercoolers (one on top of each bank), which are integral to the intake runners for the corresponding bank. Literally, all you need to separate the SC, is to take off a few bolts. Here's some pictures:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/Mazda-Mi ... 2567960339

Hmmm...no. Low octane rating gas is formulated with cheaper, lower quality additives. Also, you need to look at the origin of the oil, if you really want to make an informed decision.
For example, here in Miami, one of the cheapest brands you can find is "Citgo". Everybody frowns at it, because it's made out of Venezuelan oil, and they don't want to finance the current Venezuelan dictatorship. However, South American oil's hydrocarbon makeup is, in general, much better for producing high quality gas, and worse for oil and heavy compound production than, for example, North American, or middle Eastern oil.
And that's the reason why the gas is cheaper, while there's not "Citgo" brand oil in the market, for example. I have used that brand (and thoroughly compared it to most other brands and grades in all my cars), and, with Citgo premium (which is, incidentally, cheaper than BP, or Shell regular) I have consistently gotten a 10% increase in gas mileage.

Maybe, but it doesn't ignore them the rest of the time, and, regardless of what most people think, even in racing, you don't run at WOT that often.
Running 320cc injectors on a KL would give you an A/F ratio of about 8 to 9:1 (off the top of my head. I didn't do the math). Why do you think that wouldn't help you?

Damn! I wouldn't be so proud of it, if I were you...
I don't wanna think what those poor pistons look like...

[Ryan]

I believe you on all the stuff about the oil, without doing any of my own research, but I wonder how to relay that in a way that still makes sense.

The idea I wanted to get across is that premium isn't necessarily better than regular. It has to do with the quality of the fuel. The fact that its 91 doesn't do jack for our 9.2:1 motors, its the rest of the composition that matters. But that composition is independent of the octane rating.



I think if you were to pop a wideband onto a KL, you'd find it runs rich already, especially when you stomp on it.

We all know lean burns too hot, and starts eating the motor.

Running rich leaves unburnt, heated fuel that will turn into junk that plugs up valves and catalytic converters.

Would you not want to run as LEAN as possible to create the most power? Since an engine works from expanding gasses, and gas expands via increase in temperature.... wouldn't more temp be better? But there must be a happy medium, because the flame front can't reach every single corner of the chamber, especially at 6000 RPM....

keep trying to get me to understand

[SuperK]

Arguing with an engineer is like mud wrestling with a pig

I painted a wall when I purchased my new home. I am now a expert painter. I painted my second wall. I am now a master painter.

Dispelling Myth #314159:

Just because you do/study/etc something, doesn't mean you're good at what you do. I have seen people in the same profession for over a decade and they're horrible at what they do. I've seen people get master's degrees in fields they have no purpose being in.

[Daninski]

Ryan, I read some negative but over all I thought the post was good. There was one retard who really didn't know his a** from a hole in the ground but another member who obviously knew his stuff was on board with you so all in all I thought you did ok. Getting overly technical like exactly what constituents are in gas could be over doing things a little. Once again I must reiterate my basic retort to situations like that, Fu*k the Fu*king Fu*kers. Carry on with no regrets and no fear.

[IMACHU2]

What I know about Ryan:

• Some say he never blinks, and that he roams around the woods at night foraging for wolves...

• Some say he’s wanted by the CIA, and that he sleeps upside down like a bat...

• Some say he appears on high value stamps in Sweden, and that he can catch fish with his tongue...

• Some say he is illegal in 17 US states, and he blinks horizontally...

• Some say that his breath smells of magnesium, and that he’s scared of bells...

• Some say he naturally faces magnetic north, and that all his legs are hydraulic...

• Some say that he lives in a tree, and that his sweat can be used to clean precious metals...

• Some say that his heart ticks like a watch, and that he’s confused by stairs...

• Some say that his voice can only be heard by cats, and that he has two sets of knees...

• Some say that he’s terrified of ducks, and that there’s an airport in Russia named after him...

• Some say his skin has the texture of a dolphin’s, and that wherever you are in the world if you tune your radio to 88.4 you can actually hear his thoughts...

• Some say that he has no understanding of clouds, and that his earwax tastes like Turkish Delight...

• Some say that his politics are terrifying, and that he once punched a horse to the ground...

• Some say that his tears are adhesive, and that if he caught fire he’d burn for a thousand days...

• Some say he can swim seven lengths underwater, and he has webbed buttocks...

• Some say that his heart is in upside down, and that his teeth glow in the dark...

• Some say that his ears aren’t exactly where you’d expect them to be, and that once, preposterously, he had an affair with John Prescott...

• Some say he has a digital face, and that if he felt like it, he could fire Alan Sugar...

• Some say that his genitals are on upside down, and that if he could be bothered he could crack the Da Vinci code in 43 seconds...

• Some say his ears have a paisley lining, and he’s been banned from the Chelsea Flower Show...

• Some say that the outline of his left nipple is exactly the same shape as the Nurburg ring, and that if you give him a really important job to do, he’ll skive off and play croquet...

• Some say he invented Branston Pickle, and that if you insult his mother he will headbutt you in the chest...

• Some say that on really warm days he sheds his skin like a snake, and that for some reason he’s allergic to the Dutch...

• Some say that his first name really is The, and that if he went on Celebrity Love Island they’d all be pregnant including the cameramen...

• Some say that he once threw a microwave oven at a tramp, and that long before anyone else he realised that Jade Goody was a racist pig-faced waste of blood and organs...

• Some say that he once had a vicious knife-fight with Anthea Turner, and that he is in no way implicated in the Cash-for-Honours scandal. All we know is that he's called Lord Stig

• Some say that he is a CIA experiment that went wrong, and that he only eats cheese. All new know is that he's not The Stig - he's The Stig's fat American cousin

• Some say that if you lick his chest it tastes exactly the same as Piccalilli, and that at this week’s Brit awards he was arrested for goosing Russell Brand...

• Some say that he sucks the moisture from ducks, and that his crash helmet is modelled on Britney Spears’ head...

• Some say he isn’t machine washable, and all his potted plants are called Steve...

• Some say his scrotum has its own small gravity field...

• Some say because our producer rigged a phone vote, he now has a new name...all we know is, he's called Cuddles...

• Some say he's banned from the town of Chichester...

• Some say in a recent late night deal he bought a slightly dented white Fiat Uno from the Duke of Edinburgh...

• Some say he gets terrible ezcema on his helmet...

• Some say if he'd been the video ref in the World Cup Rugby Final he would've seen that it was of course a try you blind Australian half-wit...

• Some say to unlock him you have to run your finger down his face...

• Some say if he were getting divorced from Paul McCartney he'd keep his stupid whining mouth shut...

• Some say he thought Star Wars was a documentry...

• Some say he recently pulled out of I'm a Celebrity because he's frightened of trees....and Australia...Koo Stark...and Ant...and Dec...

• Some say he knows two facts about ducks, and both of them are wrong...

• Some say 61 years ago he accidently introduced Her Majesty, the Queen, to a Greek racialist...

• Some say when he slows down, brake lights come on in his buttocks...

• Some say if he'd been the manager of the England football squad last week he wouldn't have been a feckless-ginger-gum-chewing buffoon who ruined it for all of us...

• Some say he once lost a canoe on a beach in the northeast...

• Some say he once did some time in a prison in Canterbury because his teddy is called "The Baby Jesus"...

• Some say that after making love, he bites the head of his partner, and that he's had to give up binge-drinking now that it 's got to £1.18 a litre. All we know is he's called the Stig.

• Some say that each of his toenails are exactly the same as a woman's nipples. And that he thinks the credit crunch is some kind of breakfast cereal. All we know is he's called the Stig.

• Some say his droppings have been found as far north as York. And that he has a full-size tattoo of his face - on his face. All we know is he's called the Stig.

• Some say that he is not allowed by law, within a hundred yards of Lorraine Kelly. And that he's never seen an episode of Top Gear because he's a huge fan of Midsomer Murders. All we know is he's called Bergerac.

• Some say it's impossible for him to wear socks. And he can open a beer bottle with his testes. All we know is he's called the Stig.

• Some say his droppings have been found as far north as York. And that he has a full size tattoo of his face, on his face.

• Some say that he is not allowed, by law, within 100 yards of Lorraine Kelly, and that he's never seen an episode of Top Gear, because he's a huge fan of Midsomer Murders!

• Some say it's impossible for him to wear socks, and he can open a beer bottle with his testes!

• Some say that he sleeps inside out, and that he once had full sex with Russell Brand's answering machine.

• Some say his favourite ever song is Forever Autumn by Justin Hayward, and that he has the world's largest collection of pornographical material.

• Some say that he invented November. And that if he had won the World Championship in Brazil last weekend, there might have been one photograph of him without his father, gurning in the back of shot.

• Some say one of his legs get longer when he sees a pretty lady. And that I haven't done one of these for some time and I've forgotten to make up a second thing.

• Some say that he doesn't like to get his helmet wet. A point that was proved last week when he was caught in the back of shot by an eagle-eyed viewer.

[MrMazda92]

For what it's worth, I honestly believe 80% of ProbeTalk's membership need help changing their spark plugs.

I didn't read the thread, simply because I don't have the time atm... I honestly don't have the motivation at this point. PT members are typically wealthier than the membership here, and they spend(waste) money accordingly. Buying horsepower and bragging online is great and all(if you're an idiot), but the majority of the membership never go beyond that. Want proof? Look at the for sale section, people trying to turn a profit off of used items by selling them for far beyond their value. Hell, if you spent $2,500 on something, ran it in/on your car for 30,000 miles, and expect to sell it for $3,000 because you "tested it thoroughly", you're probably a PT member.

For real though, the level of misinformation crawling around PT is astonishing, even compared to other automotive sites. I find Honduh forums more helpful, typically more pleasant too. Don't quote me on that though, I'll deny it to the grave.

[MrMazda92]

I believe you on all the stuff about the oil, without doing any of my own research, but I wonder how to relay that in a way that still makes sense.

The idea I wanted to get across is that premium isn't necessarily better than regular. It has to do with the quality of the fuel. The fact that its 91 doesn't do jack for our 9.2:1 motors, its the rest of the composition that matters. But that composition is independent of the octane rating.



I think if you were to pop a wideband onto a KL, you'd find it runs rich already, especially when you stomp on it.

We all know lean burns too hot, and starts eating the motor.

Running rich leaves unburnt, heated fuel that will turn into junk that plugs up valves and catalytic converters.

Would you not want to run as LEAN as possible to create the most power? Since an engine works from expanding gasses, and gas expands via increase in temperature.... wouldn't more temp be better? But there must be a happy medium, because the flame front can't reach every single corner of the chamber, especially at 6000 RPM....

keep trying to get me to understand

Ryan, considered changing the shape of the combustion chamber? How about carefully(painstakingly slowly) changing your exhaust ports to a more rounded(less oval) shape? Smoother transition into your headers, with a potentially high cost(having to enlarge the ports, which you don't necessarily want...)