Ryan needs a soundboard for KL build

[Ryan]

I was kinda fearing that in the back of my head. The gains made from cams is from moving the power up the RPM range...

Tri-flows are supposed to help fix that.

I wasn't really thinking about a fidanza unless I found a deal with it pre-mated to a clutch, the combination lightly used.

Engineering the cam to just have a pointier lobe would be the job of Colt cams. I don't want to really mess with that, and I think the gains would be minimal.

So stock cams it is... or so it seems.


I plan on re-using the headgaskets. Call me a redneck, but I've done it before without any harm to the motor, as has my 20+ year Mazda senior mechanic. These motors are really not that picky.

I don't really mind that cams are out, but sadly I'm back to just a ZE then. A well tuned and cared for ZE, but a ZE.

Any thoughts on the KLG4 I/M, Inodoro? Guys on PT seem to praise it over the Milli curve neck for N/A.

[Inodoro Pereyra]

Believe me: you're not back to a ZE. Shave those heads up to a 11:1 CR, and ou'll be eating ZEs for breakfast.
My thoughts on the KL-G4 are simple: I don't have a clue.
For what I read, KL-G4 heads have solid lifters. That would give you a few extra ponies, both because the lifters are lighter, and because they provide a more consistent lift through the RPM range (HLAs tend to "sag" at high RPM).
About the IM, I read that Millenia IMs deliver less torque at low RPM than other curved necks, which makes sense, given the smaller plenum. That and the fact that they can't be polished is enough for me to stay away from them...

Reusing the head gaskets... Hmmm... They're $40 each...Don't...

[onlytrueromeo]

Ryan,

It doesn't seem like you are going to meet your goals/budget on this one. $1k is not enough money to put a solid rebuild together including clutch/cams/machine work, etc.

Take my advice, and pick 1 of 2 ways:

1) Standard engine rebuild. Nothing fancy, just new COPPER head gasket (really this is the last place you should be skimping...reusing old? Add to that the minimum amount of machining required, new waterpump/tbelt, manual tension etc, and you're pretty much at 1k. You might me able to stretch this further by getting deals on a clutch or doing 90% of the engine assembly yourself (need to have your pistons pressed) and trying to get KLG4 heads/mani from a Junkyard but that's it. Every time I price out an engine build its always closer to 2k+. Like Inodoro said, pushing to 11:1 is doable with the ZE flat tops and a decking, but now you start talking about possible interference problems, and you will not be taking advantage of anything over stock with megasquirt. In fact, I would go so far as to say megasquirt should be your FIRST mod because THIS is what's going to allow you to take advantage of ANY OTHER mods. EMS gains have been up to 20whp by being able to tune for I/H/E on a healthy ZE.

The KL is not a block built for gobs of low end torque like a monster V8 where you can just throw on boltons/cams and get big power. There is and always will be a trade off for N/A power and that is to move the power band up higher. Yes, tri-flows will help some but peak will still be higher than ZE cams. Also, w/ N/A you want to be concerned about flow much more than turbo. Higher rpms cause havoc without more $$$ but I know you know this.

Or,

2) Save more $$ until you can afford to either a) Turbo or b) Upgrade valvetrain/cams/MS/Fidanza at the same time.



I've never been a believer in the "compromise" theory when building things. Do it once, do it right and you will be much happier. Don't need to go crazy and get a 9k rpm setup, but Interprep springs, N/A Tri-Flows and a lightened and balanced rotating assembly w/ flywheel won't cost you less than 1k unless you're lucky enough to buy someones built engine (Best deal but hard to find).


At least thats my $0.02

[onlytrueromeo]

That and the fact that they can't be polished is enough for me to stay away from them...

Do you mean the outside or inside? I've got a project one downstairs thats starting to shine , but acid porting is the best way to clean up the insides or so I've been told.

I like the look of the curved neck personally, so I think I will be sticking with it. KLG4 FTW with most potential though...besides a custom, but I don't have the skills.

[Inodoro Pereyra]

That and the fact that they can't be polished is enough for me to stay away from them...

Do you mean the outside or inside? I've got a project one downstairs thats starting to shine , but acid porting is the best way to clean up the insides or so I've been told.

I like the look of the curved neck personally, so I think I will be sticking with it. KLG4 FTW with most potential though...besides a custom, but I don't have the skills.

Inside. Outside, I think the Millenia I/M is the cleanest looking one, but that means nothing if it can't be made to flow properly.

[onlytrueromeo]

I think the flow only matters for ultimate performance. Sure, take the extra ponies where you can get em, but for me, like you said, I will take the cleanest looking manifold out of the bunch. Also I don't think the flow numbers are off THAT much, dont think its more than like 10%?

A big old turbine wheel will be helping push gases through my slow flow mani anyhow Don't need to go over 300whp, so I won't be too concerned about trying to scavenge for every bit of HP. Hell I'll prob hit 250 and be happy and not want to push it more. We shall see!



PS:

Why are you awake? Why am I awake?

[Ryan]

Okay.

Just so you know, the parts I have out there and ready are:

Timing belt,tensioner, waterpump, all pullies.
stock KLDE block
rebuilt KLDE heads w/ KL01 cams
Millenia Curved
VCG's
Plug wires

a few other misc. parts. Enough for a decent rebuild. I still need rings and bearings. Main and connecting rod... I think thats all. Might fix up some of the crappy parts too, like block heater... HG's (I suppose....) and the rest of the leaky oil seals. I HATE oil leaks.

I can do a lot of work on my own. I have access to a press that can do wrist pins. I can even do my own valve work with the machine at Mazda. I just don't have machines for decking/resurfacing heads/blocks.

Do you feel the KLG4 heads/mani will be an improvement of the Milli curve neck? I can get a set of complete heads and I/M for probably $70 together. I could sell the Curve neck back to the forum for around $120... But then I have no guarantees what shape those heads are in. Need I express how perfect these DE heads are? Maybe pics help.






I feel the losses would be minimal from using DE heads if I port match them perfectly. If I'm not mistaken, most members just slap it on...

I built my BP for <$1000, but I made many many mistakes with that build. The main one was paying the headworker. The head was very likely fine, but I asked him to check it over, and he re-lapped everything at $10/valve, plus a few replacement parts.... plus my initial cost with that motor was $300. This one is basically $0.

Also, with the 1k budget, I kinda meant for that to be big ticket items, and not sub $50 parts.

I have no idea about finding someone who can balance the crank/rods/pistons, or the cost at all. I'll have to look into that.

I think I may keep an eye out for the KLG4 stuff for the members on here, if not myself. Solid lifters sounds appealing. no ticky. I read its somewhere between 1998-2002 C/USDM 626? How can I tell for sure? Coilpacks?


We already discusses the possible interference problems with decking. Figured adequate measurements on how much to remove before telling the headworker to do it would suffice. Anyone have any idea how much of a buffer to leave between an open valve and a piston top? Also must account the H/G thickness into it.

The main reason I'd like to keep the power band lower is because it will be a DD, and not a drag car. I'd like to get the most out of it without having to scoot around at 7k. I suppose its not NECESSARY to keep it low, but I'd like that. The other thing was moving the band up, you start having to do a lot of $$$ work. Balance, stronger springs...

[Inodoro Pereyra]

I think you're on the right track. Now you need to start. Remember: don't go overboard with the decking, as nobody really knows what the compression limit is for those heads on pump gas. I'm pretty sure that 11:1 should be safe, given the fact that 10:1 is used with 87 octane, but, again, nobody knows for sure.

The KL-G4 stuff is a big mystery. There's very little information about it, and some of it is contradictory. Next time I can go to a junkyard, I'll be on the lookout for one, and I'm thinking about experimenting with it when I build my engine. The solid lifters are definitely appealing, but what confuses me is that the G4 engine is rated at 170HP (4 HP less than the Millenia with the ZE heads), which makes no sense for an engine with SL and a lighter crankshaft.
The G4 crankshaft is another part I want to take a good look at. Seems to be several pounds lighter than the forged one, so that alone makes it a hot item in my book...

Balancing the rods and pistons is about making sure they all weigh the same. That's something you can do with a scale and a file or 2. It's the crankshaft that needs to be balanced by machine.

About switching to a G4 head and I/M, I don't know. That head looks beautiful. I guess it depends on what you can find out there. And yes, for what I read, you'd have to look for the Ford style coil pack.

About the valve/piston clearance, I'm thinking on leaving very little myself. Maybe about 2 mm. Again, I'm really not concerned about valve float, and especially over-the-top-of-the-lobe float, as that's something that happens with very aggressive cam grinds, on very high revving engines. My main concern is part dilation with temperature, especially the valve (lengthwise) and the piston/rod combo, so I guess some high temp measuring will be required...

You're right with the power band range. For a DD, having your power higher in the RPM range is useless (which is one of the reasons I don't like turbos for the street). Keep it as it is, and you'll be much happier with the results.

So, now, you need to start doing something, and we need to start seeing pictures. Get on it!

[Inodoro Pereyra]

I think the flow only matters for ultimate performance. Sure, take the extra ponies where you can get em, but for me, like you said, I will take the cleanest looking manifold out of the bunch. Also I don't think the flow numbers are off THAT much, dont think its more than like 10%?

I would LOVE to get 10%. That's an engine builder's wet dream. In reality, I'd be very happy if I could increase power by 1%, by just polishing the I/M internally. That's what makes mechanics fascinating: squeezing every last horsie out of an already good engine. Sure, slapping a turbo (and therefore, spending at least a couple grand) to get an instant 50% power increase is cool, but that's something almost anybody can do. But working with what you already have...that's art.

[_-Night-Shade-_]

Inodoro - 400hp N/A KL? You must be dreaming. Even 250 is pushing it. Anything over 180whp is going to need quite a bit of cash, definitely not attainable with this budget.

[Inodoro Pereyra]

Inodoro - 400hp N/A KL? You must be dreaming. Even 250 is pushing it. Anything over 180whp is going to need quite a bit of cash, definitely not attainable with this budget.

That's what I read. I'm pretty sure the guy who did it must have thrown a ton of cash at it, but, from a purely mechanical standpoint, a 400 BHP, 2.5L N/A engine is quite attainable. Of course you will have to change pretty much everything, but, having the budget and the skills, you could even go higher than that.

Personally, yes, the only thing I'm doing right now is dreaming. But I'm not dreaming with a 400BHP KL. I'm fairly sure that with a lot of work and a minimal budget I can get 240-250 BHP from a N/A DE. I just need to put my life in order first, so then I can start working on it.

[_-Night-Shade-_]

The only way to actually get to that range is to make it rev to like 18,000 which is just plain stupid. To get to those numbers going turbo would be much more realistic.

[Inodoro Pereyra]

Which ones? 400+ or 240-250?

Sometimes is not about being "realistic", but about sticking to the rules. The 400+ KL is actually a 480 BHP, IMSA car engine. So probably they did it N/A because of racing regulations.

And no. There's NEVER an "only way" to do something in mechanics.

[_-Night-Shade-_]

LOL, sure there is. It has its limitations, like anything. And if "everything" is changed, then it's not really fair to call it a KL-ZE anymore. Show me this 480bhp KL engine.

[Inodoro Pereyra]

Like I said, I haven't seen it. I read about it.

http://www.davidandjemma.com/mazda/KL.htm

Scroll down to about half the article, and you will read:

"The highest HP KL's that I've heard of were 480bhp out of the stock 2.5L of displacement, but funny enough they were the normally aspirated IMSA motors."

And that's all I know about that one.