Ryan needs a soundboard for KL build

[Ryan]

So, I'm planning to build a KL for my next MX.

I've already sourced the curve neck millenia manifold and TB. Cost was $120
I have freshly rebuilt DE heads from the scrap yards. Cost was $40.
I have ZE pistons on the way, cost was only around $75
I have KL01 cams.
I have a KLDE block/full motor for the base.

I'm not wanting to boost. I want a nice torquey DD, summer car only. I wouldn't mind putting down +200hp. I'd want the peak power to be ~4-7k. I wouldn't want to wander past 7k.

I don't know anything about aftermarket cams, I haven't done any research yet, but I'm open to ideas.

I wouldn't mind higher compression. The highest octane gas I can get around here is 91. Has anyone tried going 11:1 or 12:1? Does anyone know where we start moving into interference land?

Since the rods handle boost, I'd imagine I could raise the compression a fair bit without worrying about rods.

I'm a university student, so budget is a big thing for me. I don't even have the chassis for this motor yet, so obviously time isn't much of a concern.

Does anyone know if polishing the rods/crank holds any potential dangers

Does anyone know how far a DE block can be overbored before we thin them out too much?

I have the intent of getting phenos, port matching with them for the curve neck to the DE heads.

Any more suggestions for an ambitious guy with lots of time and a tiny budget?

[Inodoro Pereyra]

I'm planning on doing something like that in the (hopefully near) future.
The first thing you need to do is position the camshafts so one set of intake valves is completely open in one cylinder, and one set of exhaust valves is completely open in another one, and measure how much they stick past the surface. Then, you need to CC the combustion chamber.
Then, calculate the capacity of the cylinder with the piston all the way down, and see how much you can deck it without getting valve interference.

Personally, I'm fairly confident the DE should handle 11:1, or maybe even 11.5:1 on 91/92 octane, but this is pure speculation based solely on the fact that the DE is an all aluminum engine, with floating cylinder sleeves, so combustion chamber cooling should be pretty good.

Polishing the crankcase, crankshaft and rods has no downside whatsoever, if done properly. You need to get rid of any casting marks, without taking too much material, and then polish the surfaces the best you can. That will achieve 2 things: first, it will get rid in any stress risers, and second, it will reduce oil clinging to those surfaces. You probably won't see much gain power wise (maybe about 1 HP, if any), but hey, if it's free...
What you will have is a stronger engine, with a marginally lighter reciprocating mass. Remember that after polishing the rods and crankshaft you should take the engine to be balanced.
Same thing you should do to the combustion chamber and piston crowns. Radius any sharp edges, and polish them. That will get rid of any hot spots (allow you to run a higher compression), and delay the deposition of carbon, which also causes, eventually, detonation.
And, of course, porting (not only port matching, but making the ports bigger, within reason) and polishing, knife edging, etc.

There's a lot that can be done to an engine to increase performance, with little or no expense. Unfortunately, people have been led to believe that the only way to increase HP is spending a ton of money on aftermarket bolt ons. I have read about people getting 400+ HP off a N/A KL, only replacing rods and pistons. I don't expect to get that far, but a 240-250 HP DE shouldn't be hard to achieve.

BTW: what's a soundboard?

[Ryan]

Thanks for your input, Inodoro.

A soundboard is just someone to listen and provide feedback.


Could the measurement of the valve clearance not be done just via math? I believe the stock lift is in the TD section, as well as the diameters/lengths/relative angles of the valves. The C/R can be used to determine how much volume is left in the cylinder, and the dimensions of the cylinder to determine the height available.

You'd also have to consider valve float, and maybe the inertia of the valves that may cause them to travel away from the lifter/cam lobe for a moment before the spring pushes it back.

I don't really want to pay a headworker, but that may be cheaper than higher C/R pistons.

I don't have ANY performance shops that could possibly do a balance/blueprint, and then again, I don't want to rev this out to 10k. I'd be happy leaving it under 6 or 7, as long as thats where the power is made.

[Inodoro Pereyra]

Oh...! I thought a soundboard was some aftermarket part...

You could do it via math. I prefer the hands on (measurement) approach, as you really never know what you can find (like a previous decking, for example) that can throw all your calculations off.

For the cylinder volume is easier, because, for starters, it's easier to verify that the block hasn't been decked (you just have to see that at TDC the pistons are flush with the block), and because a small error is not that critical, being the high volume you're measuring.

To cc the head, my preferred method is to put a piece of transparent plastic with a small hole covering the head ("glued" with a dab of grease around the perimeter), and use a syringe to fill it up with water. And, of course, count the CC's...
CC'ing the head will also tell you if the head had previously warped and been decked (if there's a difference in volume between the center head and the outer ones), or if it's been incorrectly machined (progressively increasing volumes) so you can decide if the heads are worth saving.

Valve float is not an issue. Remember you are trying to keep the engine non interference, not to build an all out, ultra high compression, race engine. And either way, stock cams are way too mild for the valves to get anywhere near the piston. Even ZE cams have 200deg duration @ 0.050", so don't worry about that.

You will NEED to pay a headworker, unless you have the knowledge and the equipment to do the decking yourself (and if you do, let me know, so I can send you MY heads ). However, there are things you can do yourself, and so save a bunch of dough.
If you're gonna shave the piston crowns off, for example, you only need a lathe and some patience. A machine shop will probably charge you a ton of money for that.
Also, "blueprinting" is just a fancy (scary) way to say "putting all clearances within specs". Judging for the level of knowledge you've demonstrated here, I'm sure it's something you can do in your sleep. You only need a few tools (a caliper, a micrometer set, a set of inside gauges, a feeler gauge set, some plastigage, a file, and, of course, a torque wrench and a socket set), and a LOOOOOOOTTT of patience, as it is really tedious work. Then, it's just about taking every bearing, every piston ring, every piston, and verify (and adjust if necessary) their clearances.
Other than that, ask at your machine shop. Most machine shops have the equipment and expertise to balance your crankshaft. They may not be able to do a PERFECT, full racing capable job, but it's always gonna be better than stock. Also, you don't need a high rev balance job. Just to get the crankshaft compensated for the material you took off when polishing it, and to correct the (always crappy) factory balance.

Just take your time. There are some books you can get, to learn the finer points about things like tweaking and blueprinting your engine. In any case, it's a pretty simple job. What's difficult is to know when to stop.

[Ryan]

You're right, hands on is better, and in the end, easier, not to mention guaranteed to be correct.

When you speak of CC'ing the head, are you talking about the chamber at TDC? Thats what makes sense to me, not sure why you'd want to measure anything else... I suppose I'm just confused about the plastic. Why the plastic? Wouldn't it work equally well to level the head, and use a fluid with a lesser surface tension to avoid the meniscus issue?

Either way, its a good idea to see if the head was machined (in)correctly. I have access to a tool to determine if the heads are warped. Its basically an extremely straight rod that you lay across the surface (edges and diagonals) and then you insert a feeler guage beneath it at all points where it contacts the head.

As I said earlier, I don't know anything about cams. ZE lift is .050"? What is the most aggressive cam in production that works with stock pistons? Is it more the lift, or the duration that affects the power the cam makes? I would suppose its a function of both. Also, would there be some gains to be had from mixing cams? ZE intake, DE exhaust... I think I'll do some research so I can understand what typical lift/durations are, and how they affect the motor, and whats possible, what makes sense, etc..

I dislike paying people, but I don't have any machines I don't know anyone personally in the business either, so I'm working with strangers, which I also don't like. The nice thing is, in such a little town, its always personal. The owner is behind the desk the most of the time.

I thought ZE pistons were flat top? or do they still have a little crown? I need to brush up on that research too. I may go aftermarket pistons, as well. And if I'd do that, I'd be tempted to overbore the block a little and just get some slightly larger pistons. Higher C/R on higher volume = double win

I actually had no idea what blueprinting was I figured it was a way of geometrically balance(ruler), as apposed to mechanical (spin it and measure forces)

I do need to invest in a micrometer, and a feeler guage set...

I have access to scientific scales, accurate to .01 grams. (pays to be a good student sometimes) I could balance the rods that way, but I was under the impression the rod itself needed balanced, not just the masses to be equal between them. I mean from piston end to crank end. Does that actually matter, or am I just crazy?

If I were to bring my polished crank to a machine shop, how would they balance it? I've seen somewhere, that they drill out a section and fill it with a more dense metal, but I don't think a shop around here would do that. Really, we call ourselves the "automobile city" but we don't even have a drag strip, nevermind a performance shop, nevermind a machine shop.

Ryan

[MrMazda92]

Best go fast parts are stickers. Lots of them! NOS, <instertghettobrandhere>racing, VTEC, The list goes on!!!

Oh I almost forgot, slap on an EBAY sticker while you're at it, since half that crap can be purchased there!

[Inodoro Pereyra]

CC'ing the head is just measuring the volume of the head, with valves shut and spark plugs in place.
Regardless of the surface tension of the fluid you use, the meniscus always forms. That's when the piece of plastic comes in. You just stick it on the head, so it covers it completely, and the hole coincides with the combustion chamber's edge. Then, cock the head slightly so the hole is higher than the rest of the chamber, and measure your fluid. Some people prefer gas or kerosene. I'm cheap, so I use water.
If you have cupped pistons, you also need to CC the cup, and add it to the combustion chamber volume, to have an accurate reading. If you have flat pistons you're good with only the chamber volume.

The straightedge method is the usual way to determine if a head is straight. But when you are going to increase the CR, it pays to also know the HISTORY of the head. You can have a perfectly straight head now, but that head may have been warped in the past, and machined back straight. If that's the case, and you deck it further, you may end up with different CR in different cylinders, so that you may either have one or more cylinders detonating, or one or more cylinders with not enough compression (and therefore not enough overall power).

Cams are fairly easy to understand, if you don't go too deep. A cam is defined by its duration, and maximum lift. The maximum lift is self explanatory. Since it's very difficult to determine exactly where the lobe of the cam starts rising, the normal convention for defining a cam's duration is the angle at .050" lift. That is, you place a dial indicator zeroed on the cam, and start spinning it until the dial shows .050" lift. Then you write down the angle, and keep on spinning the shaft until, on the other side of the lobe, the dial goes back to .050" lift. The difference between the 2 angles is the cam duration.

The ZE cams have a maximum lift of .350", and a duration of 200 degrees at .050" lift. A high performance cam may have more than 300 degrees duration. That allows for more air/fuel mixture to get into the cylinder, especially at higher RPM. The downside is that the valve OVERLAP (the portion of the cycle at which both valves are open) increases, which makes the engine lose power and torque at lower RPM, and decreases your fuel mileage.
I wouldn't play with the camshafts, unless you have the time and money to make a thorough dyno comparison of the different combinations.

Sorry, I didn't remember you were using ZE pistons. Yes, they're flat top.

I am of the theory that people invent terms like blueprinting to scare other people into paying them for the service. It's like cellulite. If you say "fat" people go on a diet, but if you say "cellulite" they start wasting money on all kinds of useless crap. I have to confess I didn't have a clue what "blueprinting" was, until a few years ago. Then, one day I bought a book about it, only to find out it was the same stuff I've been doing for years.

Yes, you have to match the weight of connecting rods end to end. I will look for a book I have, that explains how to do all that stuff, and post it here, so you can do some reading.
Crankshafts are balanced by boring holes in the counterweights, and, in some cases, plugging existing holes with a welder.
Just remember that to balance the crankshaft you also need to send them the connecting rods and bearings, with the pistons and rings installed.

Last, if you need to buy tools and/or instruments, I recommend you to take a look at Harbor Freight. Their tools are not fancy and no brand names, but they get the job done, and cost a fraction of the "good" ones. I have almost $10K on tools from them, and I'm yet to be disappointed.

I will post the name of the books, as soon as I find them.

[onlytrueromeo]

Colt cams are the way to go, but to make big power N/A you need to do a bunch of work. 200whp is attainable but you won't be able to make it too much past that without some serious cash, and the costs of going turbo at that point are cheaper. Inodoro has given you some great advice and removing weight from the engine will make the engine feel lighter, rev faster and perform better. I would try to lighten the entire drivetrain/rotating parts to get the most out of it. Fidanza flywheel, lightweight wheels, etc. Removing A/C and powersteering will free up a few HP too, though I wouldn't want to do that personally.

If you're serious about this, I'm surprised you went with a curved neck mani rather than custom built ITB's. Sure it costs more, but a curve neck will not help you with N/A power. A KLG4 mani/heads will be best since it's got the lighter solid lifters instead of HLA's and the KLG4 flows better and can be ported more than the curved neck.

Check out leo323's build, I know you don't want a 9k engine, but he is probably the leader in N/A KL builds at the moment. It should be on here and probetalk.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dDsN7C4i0E4" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a00v0xPPp1c" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

[Inodoro Pereyra]

Here they are. I highly recommend you to read these 2 books:

"Engine Builder's Handbook" by Tom Monroe. (HPBOOKS-1245. ISBN 1-55788-245-2)

"The Step-By-Step Guide to Engine Blueprinting" by Rick Voegelin. (CARTECH. ISBN 1-884089-26-7)

[Ryan]

Sorry, Mr. Romeo, but I'm not THAT serious. Like I said, budget is key. I'd machine the stock flywheel way down, but a Fidanza is probably out of the price range. I'd look for over 200 Hp at the crank(just more than stock ZE, is really what I want), 200 WHP would be nice, but not likely. I don't think we have a dyno within a 2 hour drive.

I looked at Colt's website, and it seems I'll be asking them a few questions whenever its cam time. Easier for them to just take my info and tell me what I want


I want to keep my AC/PS/CC. This is like, a summer/sunday car. Enough balls to show up mostly everyone in town, plus the comforts...

Once again, Curve neck sounded like the best bang/buck. How does a KLG4 I/M mate to DE heads?

I picked the DE heads because they were honestly FRESHLY rebuilt, I'm talking < 5 oil changes by the looks. Not even the start of glazing, or residue of any kind. The intake valves have zero buildup, and the exhaust valves/plugs are that oh so nice greyish tanish colour. All of the valve seats look perfect. No signs of leakage.

I'm not going to hardcore port the heads/mani, but I'll do the best I can with the tools I have at hand/can be cheaply attained. I'm talking Dremel/Drill here. If I can devise a system to somehow polish the interior of the manifold, I'd do that too. It would be some sort of sandblasting / pouring sand/rocks/water through it for a week or two.

I've seen leo's build, but haven't really researched it. Its quite far out of my pricerange, and not really what I'm looking for.

but when people mock 323's... I show them that

Am I correct to assume that stock injectors will be fine as long as I stay away from boost?

I'm also thinking about engine management, as that seems like a very attractive option. It would be nice to be able to soak as much fuel economy out of her as possible, too.

Inodoro, I'll see if I can find those books. Amazon will likely be my friend, if the library isn't.

[Inodoro Pereyra]

I can tell you, without a shadow of a doubt, that the stock clutch will NOT handle 200 WHP.
Other than that, yes, if yo change your camshafts you can get 200 WHP, and more. There's no modification you can do to an engine (short of forced induction) that will have a more dramatic result than replacing the camshafts. But remember: there's no magic in mechanics, and all that power comes at a cost. The more aggressive the camshafts are, the more power you will see in the higher RPM range, but the more your HP and torque at low RPM will suffer, and so will your fuel economy, and your emissions. Camshafts with a long duration produce a big overlap (the angle at which both intake and exhaust valves are open), which inevitably causes some of the air/fuel mixture to leave the cylinders unburned. That in turn will drive your ECU crazy (because the oxygen sensors will detect it), and contaminate your catalytics.
If you're gonna replace the camshafts, stick with the "50 state legal" ones, and you should be ok.

And yes, stock injectors should be fine. If you add an engine management system, you can play with the injector timing, in case you need a little more fuel. Also, you can replace the fuel pressure regulator, and increase the fuel pressure a little.

I'm guessing you're gonna have more luck at Amazon than the library. Either way, I recommend them to you. There are a lot of things that you will understand much better looking at the pictures. And, of course, reading from somebody who actually KNOWS English won't hurt...

[Pritchett]

Well my no/low oil pressure problem has shown me the culprit I believe...I got a bearing gone, probably a crank bearing. Since it's not possible to change these while the motor is in the car I will have to pull the motor. If I have to pull the motor, then im rebuilding the whole motor over the winter. I'm talking about dumping a few grand so once its done..it will be reliable. Keep me posted on what you guys do so I can get an idea on cost and stuff

[Ryan]

I don't mind picking up a clutch. Thats one of the must haves.


I was under the impression that cams like ours can be designed to be perfect at one RPM, may it be 5542RPM, you can design the cam to be perfect for that speed, concerning the duration. Obviously it works best closest to that rpm, making a peak around where it was designed to operate.... but there are many more factors.

So, would it make sense to keep the peak power where it is in stock form? that way, since the motor was designed around that, it would be a compliment to the system.

I would want an overlap that is prime around 5.5-6k, where it peaks normally.

I don't have emissions testing here, so that won't be an issue. pre 95 vehicles can even pass safety without a cat.

[Ryan]

Okay, lets back up a bit. I'd love to keep this build under $1k. That should be fairly easy...

So far I've spent around $300 already on pistons, heads, intake, and misc parts.

Another $300 for a clutch.

$120 for thermos, new.
$500 for a Fidanza, new... thats out of the question. Rather $30 to grind it down.
$350 for cams. Thats ouch, but important. (Triflows?)
$who knows what for head work... hopefully $0. I'd guess ~$200 to deck.

Either way, looking at it, it looks like I might have to limit it to just cams/clutch.

The rest will have to be patience buys, or work I can do on my own.

I'll keep my eye open for used cams... perhaps a very gently used clutch. Perhaps a Fidanza, if they're cheap enough.

cams: http://forums.probetalk.com/showthread. ... hlight=cam*" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
phenos: http://forums.probetalk.com/showthread. ... ight=pheno*" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

PT is full of stuff.

Keep eye out for:

-Colt N/A cams(where do these peak power?) OR preferably, N/A Tri-Flows.
-Fidanza, preferably mated to a decent streetable clutch.
-Phenos, for DE heads (to be ported to mani by me)
-KLG4 I/M? I can probably score this at a scrap yard for $20, if its a CDM manifold...
-hotshot headers
-good 2.25 in muffler



Will anyone suggest a clutch brand, or do I have to read through all the opinions of people who may or may not know what they're talking about...


Oh, I also forgot I am planning to get hotshot style headers and 2.25 full exhaust... maybe a high flow cat or a res, and a nice quiet muffler... dynomax or magnaflow..

[Inodoro Pereyra]

That's precisely my point: the more aggressive the cams are (the more overlap they have), the higher in the RPM range they will peak.
The reason is fairly simple: horsepower is all about burnt energy. The more fuel you can burn at a given amount of time, the more horsepower you produce.
In a "normal" (stock) cam, HP will increase steadily with RPM, since the more turns of the crankshaft per minute, the more fuel you burn, until engine speed gets to a point that the fuel/air mixture starts not having enough time to fill the cylinder properly, and HP starts to decline. That's the optimal speed of that cam.
In a more aggressive camshaft, the air/fuel mixture has MORE TIME per revolution to get into the cylinder, so HP keeps rising, until again, that time isn't enough. But that happens higher into the RPM range. And the trade off is that at lower RPM, since the time when both intake and exhaust valves are open is much longer than with the stock camshaft, the fuel/air mixture has a long time to get off the cylinder, before the exhaust valve closes (and, to make things worse, "helped" by the scavenging effect of the exhaust itself), so low end power suffers greatly.
That's the reason (or one of them, at least) why race drivers start the race burning rubber. It's not because they want to look "sporty". It's because their 1000HP engines would take forever to get up to speed otherwise.
So, the stock camshafts peak at 5600 RPM. The ONLY way you can get more power replacing the camshafts, while keeping the peak HP at that engine speed would be to considerably lighten the valve train (think titanium valves, springs, retainers, etc. BIIIIGGGG MONEY), so you can use a camshaft with about the same duration, but with a more aggressive slope (to make the valves open and close more violently). That can be done, but, as far as I know, nobody did it until now, so you'd have to fork out the dough to ENGINEER the thing. So you better start adding zeros to your budget...
Now, obviously, the decision is yours, but I would NOT change the camshafts. That money would be much better spent on a good clutch, even on the standard flywheel. Same with the Fidanza: you don't need it. Sure it would be great to have it, but a good clutch is much more important than a light flywheel.

About the headwork, here in Miami it's about $40 per head, so yeah, between both heads and the gasket set you're looking at about $200.