swapped ZE.. spark, fuel, cranks, no start

turbulence23 · Post by **turbulence23** » May 1st, 2007, 6:58 pm

ok...

after having several problems with my car i decided it was time to swap to the ZE...

last weekend it was al done, and tonight we went to start it...
but it wouldnt fire up like i hoped it would do...

we checked all things again, thinking that me might have missed something.

checked:

fuel ( pass)
spark ( pass)
timing ( pass)
battery V ( pass)

all variables look to be good, we are getting fuel, disty sparks, timing is 100% good, battery is good, engine cranks but won't start..

we rechecked if we have forgotten any connectors, but everything seems to be plugged in, and plugged in correctly.
offcourse i can go along and check up every wire on the block, but that might be the last thing i want to do..

what the weirdest thing is. i have 3 distys here. one from my own mx, one broken, and one from a friend of mine his mx3.

when i put his disty in my car it won't start ( but gives spark) and when he puts my disty in his car it works just fine.. so i can rule out at least the disty..

anybody got an idea in what corner i might also take a look if thats a problem..

specs;

KLZE
KL36 ecu
KL-01 disty

tehbrookzorz · Post by **tehbrookzorz** » May 1st, 2007, 7:40 pm

Have you checked for compression? Where'd you get this ZE?

Post by **Custommx3** » May 1st, 2007, 7:45 pm

Verify your VAF is plugged up and your intake is completley sealed. You have to have no leaks in that intake at all.

Did you pull any codes?
Will it start in diag mode?

Tunes67 · Post by **Tunes67** » May 1st, 2007, 7:53 pm

If you have fuel and you have spark.. there is only one thing that can cause it to not be running.. timing. I know you say its 100%.. but if you truely have fuel & spark.. Thats the only thing that can keep it from running. Double check your timing belt and the tensioner and make sure its all in good condition.

Just curious.. how did you verify that you are indeed getting fuel?

Tunes67

PATDIESEL · Post by **PATDIESEL** » May 2nd, 2007, 1:40 am

Lots of good feeback already, but let me give you some "stupid" suggestions. Make sure the VAF is pointed the right way. Make sure the fuel lines are not crossed- return and feed in the opposite places. Make sure fuel pressure regulator is plugged into a good vacuum source. Make sure the ECU works. It should crank a K8 if your buddy doesn't mind testing it on his car. Make sure you have the fuel filter pointed the right way, some have a flow direction that must be followed.
I've also has problems with some ZEs not wanting to crank if they don't have a air filter- wierd b/c it should, but just in case make sure your intake has some sort of filter on it.

turbulence23 · Post by **turbulence23** » May 2nd, 2007, 5:51 am

at first, thanx for the really good feedback

@ tehbrookzorz

compression was good, don't know the numbers, but i trust the guy who sells the engines here in The Netherlands and who had done the compression test.

@ Custommx3

Vaf is plugged on, JE50, thinking of trying another one, just to rule out the VAF... the intake is completely closed, just some little cracks in the ribbled tubing i noticed yesterday night, will temporarily fix that with some ducktape.

starting in diagnostic mode, thats one thing i havent tried.. just jumpwire Ten and GND and then crank the engine???

pulled codes; yes.. it gave code 5.. knocksensor, that was correct because i found out one of the wires was snapped inside the plug, fixed the problem there, then reset the ECU, and tried to start again. still nothing. pulled codes again to verify that the knocksensor was good, there where then no codes anymore.

@ Tunes67

we first checked timing, it was off a little bit. set it back complete on time. verified if cilinder was at TDC, and then rechecked timing, still was dead on.

for the fuel, well plugs where soaked in fuel, so i believe thats a sign that fuel injection is working, or am i wrong there?

@ PATDIESEL

VAF is pointed right way. the ball thats inside points out forward. fuellines we also checked, and pressure line is correctly connected to the fuelrail. fuel pressure regulator we haven't checked yet.
we started indeed without a intake filter, thinking that this might cause the problem we mounted one, but still that didnt do the the job...
ECU will test it on my buddies mx3, have 2 ECU's, both didnt work on my ZE..

i am starting to think that there is something wrong in the wiringloom, not hoping so because that might be a lot of work to find out.

Tunes67 · Post by **Tunes67** » May 2nd, 2007, 10:42 am

Does the engine "Fire" at all when you crank it? At least trying to start? Or is it just spinning over and over without catching?

Tunes67

turbulence23 · Post by **turbulence23** » May 2nd, 2007, 3:59 pm

Tunes67 wrote:Does the engine "Fire" at all when you crank it? At least trying to start? Or is it just spinning over and over without catching?

Tunes67

it tries....

when i turn the key, the first couple of cycles of the startmotor it looks like its going to start, couple of puffs, small bangs from the exhaust, but then nothing..

just like when you turn the key it wants to start, but just after that it looks like something is blocking it from really get into startprocedure.
its just missing something, or some component stops it from really starting... intial start looks and sounds good, but after 3secs of cranking it stops all activity ( still fuel and spark are availabel) like i said all variables are there for a start: fuel, spark, air, timing, all are ok..

Tunes67 · Post by **Tunes67** » May 2nd, 2007, 4:18 pm

ike i said all variables are there for a start: fuel, spark, air, timing, all are ok..

Well this cant be the case.. if everything was ok.. it would be running

I am still betting on timing.. check the tensioner and make sure its keeping the timing belt tight

Tunes67

turbulence23 · Post by **turbulence23** » May 2nd, 2007, 4:22 pm

will check it... thanx for the input btw...

but lets assume timing is still good, and the auto tensioner is also good... what else could be wrong???

just trying to rule out certain things...

still not getting no errorcodes... maybe a problem in the wires coming and going from the ECU???

Tunes67 · Post by **Tunes67** » May 2nd, 2007, 5:00 pm

See if there was a problem in the wiring from the ECU.. you probably wouldnt be getting spark. Or you might not be getting fuel.. But since you have both.. and your sure you have both fuel and spark.. well that really only leaves timing.. Fuel soaked spark plugs dont like to fire though I can tell you that. Might want to get a new set to replace them once you have figured out what is wrong...

One other thing.. check your firing order.. make sure you have the plug wires going to the proper cylinders.

Tunes67

PATDIESEL · Post by **PATDIESEL** » May 2nd, 2007, 5:10 pm

firing order is a good goofup.
I would also add a ground to each side of the motor. MX-3s are poorly grounded from the factory and over time the ground wires decay and corrode. A 10 guage or larger on each side will work for starters. Go from the engine bay to a good chasis ground. Check the continuity from A to B to make sure you've chossen a good spot on the chasis. Let the cylinders dry out by pulling the plugs and let it sit for a bit. Soaked plugs won't fire like Tunes said.
Other than check in the ECU we've covered all the easy things to look for. Next I would consider trying a different harness, but I know you don't want to hear that.
On a note- the ECU won't store codes normally until the engine cranks and runs for a few minutes. So checking codes won't do much good now.
GL

turbulence23 · Post by **turbulence23** » May 2nd, 2007, 5:16 pm

On a note- the ECU won't store codes normally until the engine cranks and runs for a few minutes. So checking codes won't do much good now.
GL

how come it gave me code 5 error then? jumpwired the diagnostic box and got 5 blinks on my LED. what should be correct, because we found out the wire inside the plug from the knocksensor was broken.. according to the manual code 5 was the knocksensor...

we fixed that, cleared the ecu codes and after that there where no errorcodes present. cant be stored in the ECU because the ECU hasnt been in my car since the swap

will let the plugs dry for some time, clean them and see what will happen next..

indeed, swapping over the entire wiring loom isnt what i wanted to hear, but was something that was already in the back of my head

ariesdude · Post by **ariesdude** » May 2nd, 2007, 10:00 pm

One strong possiility is firing order mixup.

The valve timing might be ok - but the ignition timing might be off - the valves open/close at the correct position but the spark may not be happening at the right time.

One option might be to use the diag mode and try different disty positions (as if you were adjusting ignition timing).

(The ignition timing is also controlled by the ECU - if a sensor is giving wrong info the ecu might be "controlling" the timing in a wrong way. Check VAF, CTS etc to see if they are within specs).

PATDIESEL · Post by **PATDIESEL** » May 2nd, 2007, 11:46 pm

The disty is directly connected to the cams so timing will be close enough to start at almost any disty position. There is no "real" ECU controlled spark controll on a cap and rotor disty. Meaning that it can adjust the timing slightly, but I don't think enough to stop it from cranking. Worth a shot at this point though since it is a 10 minute attempt.
Yes, I said "normally". Meaning it can see that it is not getting a signal from a sensor, but most sensors aren't acutally read until the car goes into open loop (warm). So things like O2s, and temp sensors aren't used until the car is warm. So that you can ignore those sensors until you get it cranked.
Did you check the firing order yet?
1-3-5 on top (left to right)
2-4-6 on bottom bank (closest to radiator)
The cap is harder to read and I don't remember the order. Post back if you need that and I'll take a look.