Better Horsepower and INSANELY GOOD Gas Milage.

freakyalien · Post by **freakyalien** » June 25th, 2006, 3:47 am

I am huge into alternative fuels becuase of a science project that I did back in high school (all of about 3 weeks ago) that led me on an all expense paid trip to both Boston and D.C.
I've researched many alternative fuels extensively, including hydrogen from water. That video is BS. I stopped watching the video about 5 or 6 minutes into it.

You can, of course, get hydrogen from water (H2O) by seperating out the oxygen (O) and hydrogen (H) molecules using an electric current (called Electrolysis). This process is done by constantly introducing electrons into the water solution. The hydrogen can then be used as a fuel source to power engines with HEAVY modifications. This is what this guy is doing....as far as I watched the video, anyway.

Now comes in the BS. They say you get 700X more energy out of this reaction then you put it. No. Doesn't work that way. The amount of electrical energy needed to effectivly seperate the oxygen atoms from the hydrogen is vastly superior to the energy you can harness from the resulting hydrogen.

As for myth busters....I agree with whoever said don't believe everything you see on TV. I've seen multiple times how wrong they can be.
Although I must admit, it can be fun to watch them blow stuff up...

Vanished · Post by **Vanished** » June 25th, 2006, 4:34 am

Ah yes...nothin on tv=true, but nothin on tv=false. It's more exagerated. It's all based on some type of given information that is true and factual.

For instance, you guys all know david blain. Does he levitate? NO! he keeps on foot flat, and goes on the toes of the other..convicing, but BS.

Freaky alien --> did you find out how much electrical energy it takes to split a certain amount of H20? It would be very intersting to see if the battery it our car could do it while we are sleeping at night..then in the morning, you've got a tank of hydrogen! and when you start the car, it'll just charge up the battery again..

i mean this whole hydrogen deal is great, but if it was really THAT amazing and THAT simple, alot more people woudl be doing it..dont' get me wrong, auto manufactures have developped hydro fuel cells, but i'm talking about DIY kinda things like the guy in this thread.

I can't wait to see what happens to hydro theories in the next 100 years..could be very very very cool.

mr1in6billion · Post by **mr1in6billion** » June 25th, 2006, 2:16 pm

yayaya.. quantum harmonics and vacuum energy.. blah blah blah

It actually puts out more energy than it takes in, which, is impossible according to the rules of physics (you know what they say about rules)

Isn't that exactly what happened when someone came up with the idea that the Earth was not the center of the universe?

Not exactly. Your comparing something that was believed by idiots a few thousand years ago to a law of physics that has held up and been the basis for every other law in physics for the last 300 years. Everything (both in physics and in life) has a reaction. There is no way around that. Zero Point theory has yet to be truely proven, so the concequence is yet to be known. Take Nuclear power for example: Near limitless energy for almost nothing, yet look at what else you get back.

Now on to the Chemestry.

Hydrogen power has been around for a long time. The problem with it is that Hydrogen is not found in nature due to the fact that it willingly bonds with anything it touches. Thus, it must be refined (which is going to take energy). As you have stated, you can seperate water into hydrogen and oxygen. In fact, I've done this! amazing, no? You can also take 2 parts hydrogen and 1 part oxygen (plus a spark) and you get water (and a decent explosion)! The problem tho, is that the energy it takes to seperate the H and the O is equal to the energy you get putting them together. THERE IS NO WAY AROUND THAT. Even if somehow you could use less energy seperating them than you would get putting them together, you wouldn't get much out of it.
I'm not saying Hydrogen Fuel is bad either, it's just that people think it's clean burning (we'll it is), but the energy to refine hydrogen comes (generally) from natural gass or whatever your local power plant throws out (which isn't clean).

Lets learn more chem!

But what if we seperate water and add it to fuel!! Wow! Genius! Actually that might work, seeing as how cars ideally should run on only oxygen. We throw some hydrocarbons around (gas), mix in some air (oxygen), add a spark, BOOM, Club Soda! (Water + Carbondioxide). Seeing how oxygen is only about 20% of our atmosphere we should see a huge power boost. Then, when we're done we can seperate the water and do it again! wow!...... haha.. no. I'm kidding. The problem lies in Carbondioxide. For every oxygen you get out of water your losing 2 oxygens in CO2. Not to mention (like we discussed earlier) you'll lose a bit of energy seperating the water again. It's not an entirely bad idea. Like you said, NOS (or more appropriatly N2O) works on the same principle, induce more oxygen. But think about how long a bottle of N2O lasts.... ya..

he made a dune buggy get 100mpg on nothing but water

Think about this one for a min... 100mpg.. on a dune buggy.. Is that supposed to be special? Motorcylces can get 70mpg easy. Slap a hydrogen motor on a dune buggy (which is lighter) and 100mpg is probly the norm.

If you want to go ahead and do this mod, I won't stop you. But don't expect it to be all it's hyped up to be. In the end it's just a small bottle of nos which, considering you don't have proper engine management, will probly result in the same net fuel economy and hp you were getting before.

Typhoonk · Post by **Typhoonk** » June 25th, 2006, 5:31 pm

Decided to do my own experiment. Very interested in getting that extra 100-150 km out of a tank of gas.

I took a cup.
Two peices of metal.
Some speaker wire.
Amp Meter.
Bottled water.
Salt.
12volt power source.

I filled the cup with the water and added a little bit of salt. attached the metal to the speaker wire (one positive one negative). Put them into the water solution (not touching each other). Then hooked them up to a fused 12 volt source.

MAN THAT thing bubbled hydrogen like no tomorrow!!!

I hooked up my ampmeter to find out how much energy it would be stealing from the car over a period of time.
(first cup -> 3/4 full tim hortons large cup, with 3 packs of salt)
1. It started at 9amps
2. After an hour it went to well over 20 amps

I tried it again with less salt in the water.
(second cup -> 1/4 full with 1/3 a pack of salt)
1. It started at 3amps
2. after an hour it went over 12 amps

I also found in I shook the cup gently the chemical reaction got faster (more bubbles), and the amps went up!!! sometimes 3 to 4 amps!!!! But if I shook it for a minute or two then left it alone, the amperage would drop 3 to 4 amps. Hmmmm interesting.......

After the hour of making hydrogen, you are left with two corroded peices of steel, and a cup of red liquid - that didn't look too healthy.

but hmmmm, can you get high sniffing hydrogen?

LOL

Looks like it would work if it didn't get you engine knocking, and u could adjust the solution to be within 10amps (constantly, which looks to be impossible)- and change the water with every tank of gas.

Gonna do some research on this more, and more experiments - I'm very interested in this simple chemical reaction that could save me a couple of bucks!!!

Post if you learn anything!!!!

ariesdude · Post by **ariesdude** » June 25th, 2006, 6:26 pm

Typhoonk wrote:Decided to do my own experiment. Very interested in getting that extra 100-150 km out of a tank of gas.

There are some "commercial" devices out there that do the exact same thing - except they route the electrolyzed gases to the intake and into the combustion chamber. It is supposed to make the fuel burn better (like N20) and produce more power because of the explosive nature of hydrogen... Also they are supposed to absorb the extra heat energy and convert to water releasing more kinetic energy in that process! So they are supposed to provide a little boost and a little bit more power by "burning" water....

Cy · Post by Cy » June 25th, 2006, 11:23 pm

you all realize that this man was KILLED because he had something that worked.. aleast well enough to patent....

People living in the 1900's were prevy to the LARGEST and FASEST technological revolution in history...
Now big business and old people with yacht's want to stay rich and get richer so they pay small time operations big big bigggggg money to packup and buy ferrari's...If you don't take the cash.. they kill you...

THE NEXT 50-100 YEARS WILL BE RULED BY THE PRICE OF A DROP OF OIL...Mad Max is what i'm thinking...it's already started with Bush in Iraq...it's just not gone nuclear..but it probably will if the american's get greedy enough..You can all increase you're gas mileage but don't expect to see a ford with a hydrogen motor...

BTW Mythbuster's prooved that you COULD run an engine on hydrogen but his fuel cell SUCKED and was COMPLETELY inefficient.. Even an Amateur could have produced more gas then his did...

As for the overnight fuel cell... you're looking more along the lines of the 24 hour hydrogen generator in your garage that you fill up from...
Using an even moderately efficient hydrogen fuel cell with an attached water source and 110V power source could produce enough hydrogen in over a day to fill up an incar cylinder...the problem is that they need to be big not small... small isn't efficient enough compared to a bathtub sized tank...

Custom_V6_Limited_SE · June 26th, 2006, 9:46 pm

I would like to comment that I was impressed by the 100mpg (I have heard up to 200mpg) dune buggy because it was mpg on water...no oil envolved whatsoever except to lubricate the engine. Also, I never said it was putting out "700x" more energy than it was consuming. It was putting out several times the energy (Maybe 3 times) that it was consuming in electricity. If you are interested in the research that is being done on this technology by individuals like you and me, visit http://www.waterfuelcell.org and go to the forums (Left side of page) and then go into the water fuel cell section (Top one) and then the low voltage research area. This seems to be getting the most positive results of the various techniques. Also check out Daniel Dingel; he claims to have several cars running on water and has a video of the newest one running and being driven. His English isn't very good, but, you'll get the idea. http://www.mysticfamilycircus.com/Pages ... oh29MB.mov

O, and, with standard electrolysis, you do not get out the same amout of energy that you put in. This is apparent due to inefficiencies like heat generation. Electrolysis actually takes about 3 times the energy in as it puts out; which is the opposite of Stan's technology. Also, hydrogen is hydrogen; it doesn't need to be refined. The question is how to get the hydrogen, which, in most cases today, involves burning fossil fuels to provide energy to seperate water into hydrogen and oxygen.

Custom_V6_Limited_SE · June 26th, 2006, 10:47 pm

Here's a video of a water fuel cell that someone got to work much more efficiently than conventional electrolysis. http://www.icubenetwork.com/files/water ... Wfcrep.WMV and here is the link to his thread http://www.icubenetwork.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=98 enjoy. I believe his latest adjustments got it up to 349% efficiency.

freakyalien · Post by **freakyalien** » June 29th, 2006, 3:37 am

Vanished wrote:
did you find out how much electrical energy it takes to split a certain amount of H20? It would be very intersting to see if the battery it our car could do it while we are sleeping at night..then in the morning, you've got a tank of hydrogen! and when you start the car, it'll just charge up the battery again..

I don't know the amount of electical energy, no. I just talked with my old science teacher about it, and he didn't know the exact number either.

Thats a good idea though, about the battery itself seperating the water.

If the battery (or batteries) seperated the water, and the battery had a way of recharging that did not require the use of outside fuels (gas, etc.), then even if the water did take more energy to seperate the hydrogen out, it would still be beneficial.

So, the next step in this process would be to figure out a way to get the batteries to recharge after seperating the water without plugging your car into a wall or something similar. I heard that certain hybrid cars partcially recharge their batteries when the brakes are applied. I wonder how much energy is produced? Enough to recharge a fairly large set of batteries?

Custom_V6_Limited_SE · June 30th, 2006, 6:22 pm

You wouldn't have to charge the battery since that is done by the alternator. Of course, you're probably going on the assumtion that it will be less than 100% efficient, in which case, you would have to recharge batteries; however, due to the information available, I believe it will be way more than 100% efficent ("Dave's Cell" is ~349% efficent). I found a site that claimed to have plans to make your car, boat, airplane...run on water. I was extremely skeptical, but, after looking at the plans, I immediately recognized the technology and realized that there is a very strong chance that it will work. The link to the site is http://www.spiritofmaat.com/archive/feb ... ns_doc.htm

and here is the link to download a zip file with several electronic diagrams...that are important in the construction of the device http://www.spiritofmaat.com/archive/feb2/carplans.zip

Custom_V6_Limited_SE · June 30th, 2006, 6:24 pm

This is a video of a Fox News broadcast from about a month ago that shows the technology to a limited extent http://video.yahoo.com/video/play?p=wat ... ck=Results

WingleBeast · Post by **WingleBeast** » August 8th, 2006, 2:26 am

im crying right now, because alot of you just proved to me that this generation will be the downfall of the world.

this is BS. areisdude has some repellant somewhere. im not even going to go into the produce more electricity than put in. also i dont know if some of you have realised chemitry, but an engine is a fixed capacity vessel. for every bit of nitrogen you remove oxygen that would have been reacting with the gasoline. secondly, hydrogen is explosive, unlike the burning gasoline vapors. trust me there is a difference.

WingleBeast · Post by **WingleBeast** » August 8th, 2006, 2:36 am

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_fuel_cell

sorry to rain on your parades

Custom_V6_Limited_SE · August 15th, 2006, 4:28 pm

You can debate whether Stan Meyer was legitimate or not, although, from all of my research, it seems that he very well could have been legitimate and his technology is not outside the realm of posibilities. Also, why would the pentagon...be so interestred in his technology if it was crap? Denny Klein, on the other hand, is a living person who has made a similar device. His company is located in Clearwater, Florida and his company has already shipped several of his devices to various research institutions... Although the gas produced by his device is different chemically than Stan Meyer's, it is similar in that it uses small amounts of electricity and water to produce large amounts of energy. In one hour, his device will produce 1500 liters of what he calls HHO gas with about seventy cents of electricity. This is something that may be more difficult for you to debate

Video http://hytechapps.com/video/hta05.mov and the website http://hytechapps.com/ the reason he got so far without threats...is that he wasn't trying to make cars run on water. He was trying to make an environmentally welder and the car was an afterthought.

mr1in6billion · Post by **mr1in6billion** » August 15th, 2006, 6:34 pm

Custom_V6_Limited_SE wrote:You can debate whether Stan Meyer was legitimate or not, although, from all of my research, it seems that he very well could have been legitimate and his technology is not outside the realm of posibilities.

Debate? Your trying to disprove the first law of thermodynamics. That's not much of a debate.

Also, why would the pentagon...be so interestred in his technology if it was crap?

I get curious about stuff, I find out it's crap, I walk away. They probably did the same.

Although the gas produced by his device is different chemically than Stan Meyer's, it is similar in that it uses small amounts of electricity and water to produce large amounts of energy.

Different chemically? It's water.

This is something that may be more difficult for you to debate Video

No one said Hydrogen technology wasn't possible or viable. The technology has been around for years. You can even cut steel and granite with water in liquid form. I've watched small machines cut 6in thick steel. When I went to the quarry they could slice massive blocks with water. Using HHO to weld seems hardly special. As for the car they made, I see hydrogen cars driving around the city all day; again, nothing new or special.

I'm a little curious. Lets say I made a machine. I start out by putting a light bulb and a solar panel in a box. The bulb is connected to the panel. If I flash a flashlight onto the panel it will power the bulb. Once the bulb is on I can turn off the flashlight, as the bulb can now provide power to the panel. Now that the bulb is self sustaining I place a second panel inside the box, which will be connected to a outlet allowing you to plug in whatever you want (boom box, a lamp, ect). If I made it, would you buy it? It can run whatever you want and it would only cost you 5 seconds of using a flashlight. Awsome, no? I might be onto something here. And don't worry, I'll give you a good deal on my machine.