If I removed the distributer, would I need to time it or

FlyVFR · Post by **FlyVFR** » December 11th, 2005, 2:41 am

hgallegos915 thanks for verification. Yours is in tune I see by the results you posted. Did you put the disty back to 10° after you moved it

Did it land on the same spot

FlyVFR · Post by **FlyVFR** » December 11th, 2005, 3:07 am

You're not going crazy. A little confused maybe because this is confusing stuff! And I'd prefer if you'd call it a discussion instead of "banter" After all that's all it is!

XxantwawnxX wrote: You dont have to adjust base timing if you take the disty off ad put it back on.

You almost had it right. It should read "You dont have to adjust base timing if you take the disty off ad put it back on the same spot.

Again and not to be insulting, once you move the disty you also change "base timing" whether you're in diagnostic "service" or closed loop mode. Very simple: move disty = changed base timing. Get it

Base timing is not stored by the ECU, but it is adjusted by setting the disty and keeping it at the same spot.

hgallegos915 · Post by **hgallegos915** » December 11th, 2005, 3:31 am

i checked..when ten and ground were not jumpered timing did not move at all.. strange... but yes all of u are right..because i did notice before when i had the k8 if i would move the disty all the way up without service mode it would make the car sputter meaning it does affect it.. basically ..if you mark the spot where its at and you set it back you are ok..if you forget, set it to half. jumo ten and ground and adjust to your desire..remove the clip while car is on then it should save timing i believe.

XxantwawnxX · Post by **XxantwawnxX** » December 11th, 2005, 3:33 am

hgallegos915 wrote:i checked..when ten and ground were not jumpered timing did not move at all.. strange...

Ok that sall i need...as long as i know what im saying is correct. : P Because i have never marked it and put it back on in slightly diff pos im sure everytime(and thent theres when i turned it to test it) and it never affected anthing....i think idle changed for abrief moment then settle back down to normal. that was it.

hgallegos915 · Post by **hgallegos915** » December 11th, 2005, 3:36 am

i would still sugest a timing light to check..should be at around 10 degrees as per manual specs.

XxantwawnxX · Post by **XxantwawnxX** » December 11th, 2005, 3:41 am

hgallegos915 wrote:i would still sugest a timing light to check..should be at around 10 degrees as per manual specs.

Yeah ive used the light before on my second swap. I was curious..and yes it was right smack where it should be.

Haha and sorry for using "banter" ...not sure why it just came out. Discussion is much better.

FlyVFR · Post by **FlyVFR** » December 11th, 2005, 4:01 am

hgallegos915 wrote: i checked..when ten and ground were not jumpered timing did not move at all.. strange...

What's strange? That the ECU compensated for the change in timing while in closed loop mode? That's not stange at all. it's normal. The timing did change but the ECU compensated for the change based on the readings it received from all sensors while at at idle, not because it was stored. Now if you jump the ECU it stops making all these changes and it will give the true base reading of where the disty really is located in reference to degree marks and crank sensor. Again this value is not stored, but is triggered by the crank sensors controlled by the ECU and the disty needs to be set at the specified base timing to be within programmed spec for the entire RPM range! That's why once the base timing is set you need to leave the disty where it is otherwise you'll have to jump the ECU and set it again bacause it is NOT a stored value.

If you move your disty often eventually you'll lose track of the set position and your base timing will be out of wack and depending on how much it's off by the car will exhibit poor performance and gas mileage.

XxantwawnxX · Post by **XxantwawnxX** » December 11th, 2005, 9:26 am

Now th ecar is in open loop when the motor is cold or at WOT. Meaning the computer is not reacting to the feed back information. If i remember correctly, even in Open loop my car never changed timing. Although i will check this out today ..or monday to make sure. I will alos use my timing light again to check my timing, because my car should def be out of wack with all the lack of marking i use. Let ya know what i find out. Hopfully it is out of wack because i could use some extra milage

Let me ask you this:

Since the car compensates for disty movement while in open loop. Then will the car run crappy while cold and get crap gas in WOT then while it gets in Closed loop start running normal once it compensates?

hgallegos915 · Post by **hgallegos915** » December 11th, 2005, 11:44 am

I was mentioning its strange because my old k8 maybe was out of wack..this was before i ahd changed timing belt on it, when it was not in diag mode it would move timin a bit whe i would turn it. then sometimes it wouldnt..ended up being the timing was off beyond specs..when nit was cold it would run like crap, when it was warm it would run ok. It was the timing on the car.

I would suggest resetting the timing why not

its easy, do the diag mode, adjust idle screw and set timing so that the idle is normal and walla

Juans_93_MX3 · Post by **Juans_93_MX3** » December 11th, 2005, 1:51 pm

So, take out my disty, mark it. Then when I put it in, I dont have to worry about timing or anything as long as I put at on the marked spot.
Correct?

FlyVFR · Post by **FlyVFR** » December 11th, 2005, 2:23 pm

hgallegos915, sort of makes sense ( the strange part on the old K8 )
Good advice, a check up can't hurt.

XxantwawnxX, If you set the timing as per shop repair manual you will have the full range in timing which the ECU will calculate and vary timing needed as needed in reference to all input information gathered at any given interval while the engine is running.

In theory, I think of ECU timing as a line of 10 feet in length. The base timing is set physicaly at five feet at idle by locking the disty to that point. In this condition the ECU has 5 feet of advance timing and 5 feet to retard timing. Now if we move the disty to 8 feet the ECU only has 2 feet of advance to compensate as it reaches max and performance is lost because it will never be able to give 2 more feet of advance. The opposite will happen when the ECU needs to retard the timing, it will reach a point where it will never be able to retard the timing enough for optimal performance.

OK... I have truly exhausted the subject.

FlyVFR · Post by **FlyVFR** » December 11th, 2005, 2:29 pm

Juans_93_MX3 wrote:So, take out my disty, mark it. Then when I put it in, I dont have to worry about timing or anything as long as I put at on the marked spot.
Correct?

Assuming that the base timing is set correctly to begin with. Yes, mark a reference point on the engine and disty before you move it.

Align the marks you made while setting it back in tighten the bolts and you're done!

XxantwawnxX · Post by **XxantwawnxX** » December 11th, 2005, 9:34 pm

FlyVFR wrote: In theory, I think of ECU timing as a line of 10 feet in length. The base timing is set physicaly at five feet at idle by locking the disty to that point. In this condition the ECU has 5 feet of advance timing and 5 feet to retard timing. Now if we move the disty to 8 feet the ECU only has 2 feet of advance to compensate as it reaches max and performance is lost because it will never be able to give 2 more feet of advance. The opposite will happen when the ECU needs to retard the timing, it will reach a point where it will never be able to retard the timing enough for optimal performance.

OK... I have truly exhausted the subject.

HEHE i knew all of that. Although putting it in feet to explain it was a good idea.

hgallegos915 wrote:when nit was cold it would run like crap, when it was warm it would run ok. It was the timing on the car.

That answered my previuos question thanx. Ill do a lil check up on monday and let ya know if i was off any.

FlyVFR · Post by **FlyVFR** » December 11th, 2005, 10:23 pm

XxantwawnxX wrote:
HEHE i knew all of that. Although putting it in feet to explain it was a good idea.

Wise arse

It sure didn't sound like it by your posts. I'm glad I was able to get the point across. Thanks for the half compliment. Stick around kid there is a lot to learn.

BTW I see you joined here Jan 8th. on Elvises' birthaday

XxantwawnxX · Post by **XxantwawnxX** » December 11th, 2005, 11:00 pm

Actually i was here WAY before that..but they messed up my account and all i could get back was my post count : ( thats why i have..696...posts.. But yea im working on getting ASE certified. I knew what i was trying to say..but it seems i had a term or two wrong. (like you pointed out in one of your posts) Ill deff be sure to remembe rnow after we went through all this.

I still never marked my disty and never had a prob!!! so there!!

: P heh Actually ill find out tomorrow for sure if my timing is off or not. I doubt it though cause it runs pretty strong.

I do appreciate all the posts made by you on this subject, all very well written and such. Very imformative.