Nd4SpdSe wrote: That also helps is that they tested it almost right away, it's suppose to help to have the engine upto temp. I know your an easy driver too John, drive her around and just giv'er for a few days, "clean out the carbon" from your old man style driving
Thanks Mike. Like I said previously, I took it out onto the highway for a good spirited run (120-140kph / 4th and 5th gears) for 20-25 minutes and directly to the e-test facility where there was less than 5 minutes before before the test started. The test actually cycled through twice with the computer citing possible engine cold temp anyway. "Old man style" ...LOL, it's kept me accident free for 30 years and I usually keep up with the best of them in group rides.
lakersfan1 wrote: Yeah. If you drive Ms Daisy all the time, you could stand an Italian tune-up before the test.
I don't baby it and I don't abuse it either. I like to think I use a happy medium with momentary lapses of sanity. Normal shift points for me is around 3,500 to 4,500 rpm. Ms Daisy ... I like that.
atlantamx3 wrote:I would say you need to change those o2 sensors if they are the original ones.
Perry, If I need to go the O2 route, can I get away with one by going to the Inovative WB/NB O2 system? What would the ECU do if it didn't see one or even both O2's? Can O2's be cleaned up a bit using TB cleaner and compressed air or will it make it worse?
atlantamx3 wrote:If your o2s are bad- then your ECU is over- or under compensating for that bad signal and screwing up your emissions.
I dont think you can clean them- they just have to be replaced--ESPECIALLY if you still have the original ones, my man.
As far as having just one, and it being a wideband... I am not sure. I would think if it came with two- you need to keep two. Not sure.
I understand that in fact if it is the O2's than they would have to be replaced. Replacing pricey items like that just on mere speculation doesn't seem to be a prudent way to approach this. I've yet to hear if anyone has attempted to clean them or what sort of results were achieved. Although NOPI Online offers replacement ones for around 60-70 bucks that price is almost doubled not including shipping and taxes when sold through their Canadian franchises. Inovative O2 systems come in various levels and each comes with a single Bosch O2 sensor that provides both Wideband info (for aftermarket management tuning) and narrow band info (which our cars use). I'm wondering if I got one of those systems and used the Narrowband info required by the KL31 ECU would the car still function efficiently if the second O2 was not replaced? Is there a way of testing O2's cause I don't recall seeing anything in the manual on this? Can a shop do an accurate diagnostic on a ZE with a KL31 ECU in trying to diagnose possible O2 problems?
i'm almost positive that the diagnostic for code 15 and/or 23 (o2 sensors) has a way to test them. i'll check tonite, but i know it's mid way through the F2 section.
You can have my KF if you can hydrolock a v-6 running at 2500 with a spray bottle. I just used the PCV valve hose to suck up water and then fuel injector cleaner this Saturday. Injector cleaners here smell just like rubbing alcohol, and the beast is in need of some cleaning. I will try to hydrolock it again this weekend to try to get the rest of the gunk out. Hopefully will be able to change the oil soon after.
use this formula
3.0l V6
3/6 = 0.5 liter per cylinder
1000cc/liter
0.5 * 1000 = 500cc
10:1 compression ratio.
500/10 = 50cc
DOn't know what engine you have, but you can figure the math out. Yes, it's done alot, started by the government in WW2.
Last edited by ocshaman on October 31st, 2005, 5:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
I have a shop manual and know what the codes are for the K8. Even though no ones ever said that ZE codes are a direct duplicate from the K8 I tried looking for codes already this past weekend on my ZE. I placed one lead from test light on FEN in diag box and the other lead on battery+. I got no codes, but thanks.
ocshaman wrote:You can have my KF
I have a KLZE (2.5L). I like your idea but I believe I should try to solve the root of the problem before looking to alternative modifications. Perhaps when I go to an after market engine management system I can consider your idea since the MegaSquirt System can control up to 12 injectors. But thanks for your suggection.
*John*
I was just thinking if I've done the KLZE CEL code retrieval correctly. Using a test light probe I placed one lead on the FEN in the diag box and the other lead on the battery+ terminal while the ignition is turned on but not running. Is the TEN and Ground also supposed to be jumped at the same time? Don't want to guess on this one as I know I can really smoke some electrical/electronic items in the process. I'm supposed to see the test light flash the correct number of long and short flashes to retrieve the code correct? So if correct and no codes why would I want to assume it's the O2's as a possible problem. What do you other ZE owners do when it comes to retrieving codes on an '92 OBD 1?
Rick Johnson wrote:Put your car in diagnostic mode, jumper the ten+gnd. I'll bet money you'll pass. Just make sure your not throwing a bunch of codes or pull your check engine bulb so the tester doesn't suspect anything.
I think this will work because these motors run super rich from factory, and they get really lean in diagnostic mode. If you got a couple tries give it a go.
Rick, where do you find this stuff out. Inside pipeline to the Mazda techies?? Is this a for sure thing - ie, has anyone tried this and it worked?
The water spray used by the mechanic is called a hydro burn. I also did that to me E when it was first installed to clean out the carbon. It is the best way IMO to get a good clean cylinder head. It basicaly boils the water and steam cleans the pistons, walls, valves and head. I put a few drops of water down the spark plug holes and cranked the engine. Looked back in the spark plug holes and viola! perfectly clean and shiney.
However, I don't think that carbon build-up is your problem J-Beef. Nor the O2s for that matter. If a O2 sensor is bad you'll know it. The car will run like total crap and in limp mode untill you replace them.
Problem is, I'm not exactly sure what you problem is. We have a MOCA member who I managed a ZE install on. Exact same as mine except he uses a REAL ZE ECU and MAGNAFLOW muffler, cat and silencer just like you do. His is a straight neck, but I don't see that making any real difference. The funny thing about this is that he also failed just barely. He changed O2 sensors, did a fuel injection clean, had brand new wires and plugs, TPS and idel controll set perfectly at 750 rpm. So why did he fail? IMO, the Magnaflow cat was the issue. Its straight open design must not be keeping the exhaust long enough to burn all the left over fuel. I know you'd think otherwise, but I can't see anything alse wrong with his car and I know a decent amount about the ZE. He eventually Paid to pass, if you know what I mean...
What you need to look at is what does the car use to controll emisions and air/fuel ratios? easy: O2 sensors+ head temp, water temp (but only untill it is warm then the car uses the O2 sensors) EGR (don't have it, right) Cat, spark, idle controll does a small part as does TPS but I doubt enough to fail you.
You cannot clean an O2 sensor. It read temps, the thermostat wears out, nothing to clean there. It is basically nothing more than a wire that runs through the exhaust gasses, the hotter the wire gets the more electricity will pass through it and the ECU reads the voltage as a pre-set temp and adjusts air/fuel + timing to match a Mazda set map.
So check the timing and make sure it is spot on 10* advance, check the gap again and set to exact as you can get them. Don't worry about colder/hotter burn right now, Mazda did alot of testing for you so follow their directions just for the moment. As for the TB, that sounds good and should help emiminate some variables.
So if all that checks out and you replace the O2 sensors and it still will not pass then I would have to say it is you cat, no other alternatives to point to.
Do not try limp mode, it runs SUPER rich b/c the engine uses that to combat a number of problems some of which are too little fuel.
PS, I really don't think I'm wrong about the cat...
ZE -strait neck,headers,2.5 exhaust,pheno spacers,lower cross member,GC coils,MS struts,Brembo slotted rotors,filled MS mounts,SS brake/clutch lines, CAI,to rear bat reloc,Hella headlamps,Hella DE fogs 180WHP
Thanks for taking all of that time to lay a lot of this stuff out for me Pat!!! Well it's definitely not running on limp mode, never has to my mind, not when I had the K8 and not when I got the ZE. Gobs of torque and power. I did notice that Mike's (Nd4SpdSe) ZE's test where he passed quite easily had his idle test portion done when the car was over 1,000 rpm. I'm thinking that perhaps slightly adjusting the Idle Air Screw while in diag mode to about 900-1000 rpm might help in the idle part of the test. I'm thinking that the ZE mapping may be overly rich at the 2500 rpm range but it's only a guess. I'm liking your Cat idea more and more since I was getting a considerable amount of deposits of what appears to be unspent fuel onto the rear bumper in the past but since the TB change appears to be reduced . I imagine that's where the EGR plays a big role? The current TB appears to be much better after spending many hours fine tuning it. I no longer have any sticky idle problems and have a constant 700 rpm idle after city or highway driving. Between that and replacing the cone air filter I believe I may have a fighting chance. I'll take the car out for the next couple of days since it's only had 2 short trips since these recent fixes and arrange for another test towards week's end. What's your take on not reseting the ECU after adjusting idle while in diag mode since it appears on many PT posts that it's not a good thing to adjust the Idle Air Screw while not in diag mode. Again, thanks for all of the help.
*John*
I always set it in Diag mode. I've heard htat is the correct way to do and never asked why or why not. <shrugs> your guess is as good as mine on whether or not it makes a difference, but I'd say it has to if the shop manual sais to use diag mode when setting the TPS.
Good luck and I know I didn't really help much, but I hope I helped shed some light on how it works and what to look for.
PS, I know you are a knowledgeable MXer so I hope you don't take offence to my over-explinations. I just want to make sure that you are clear since I don't know you well enough to know what you do or don't know.
ZE -strait neck,headers,2.5 exhaust,pheno spacers,lower cross member,GC coils,MS struts,Brembo slotted rotors,filled MS mounts,SS brake/clutch lines, CAI,to rear bat reloc,Hella headlamps,Hella DE fogs 180WHP
Back when florida did emision testing I learned a few things about helping a car pass when maybe it shouldn't.
first off, double check that you properly set the timing to 10 deg. and the tps to the fan off method, which I believe is less than .5v. tune up which you have already done. new air filter. My car would pass with a hollowed out cat so I don't think it is the cat. 02's can make or break your numbers also, I did the one wire o2's and have had good luck with them and there affordable. The higher your idle is the better your numbers will be. keep in mind that if your idle is to high they might question it. The faster the exhaust flows the less the sniffers that they put in the tail pipe
can read its contents.
They also sell chemicals in auto parts stores that are supposed to help the numbers. Rubbing alcohol, the 90% kind is supposed to help.
You want a hotter and more complete compustion. Maybe thats were the chemicals and or rubbing alcahol help.
I don't see what setting the TPS would have to do with anything here. If he failed idle, I'd screw with the TPS. Being he failed the mid-RPM test, he's running on O2 sensors pretty much at that point. You're beating a dead horse with the TPS on this issue.
well your right, read it wrong. I thougt idle failed and run test passed.
About the TPS, what I was saying is you should set both at the same time in order for it to be the most benefit, timing and TPS. If he hasn't done that yet I'm suggesting he does.
Pat, you've been a big help and it's very appreciated.
Andy, thanks for the input also. I think a big part of my problem was a farked TB that along with having an excessive amount of leak by air around the butterfly that would generate a specific VAF position based on that blow-by vaccum generated. The problem here is that that corresponding VAF position should be coincidental with specific Throttle Positions and that wasn't happening because of that air leaking by the butterfly. I changed the Tb that has a much better seal (not perfect) in the venturi and the blow-by air is now being controlled by the Air Idle Screw which is supposed to happen. With that in mind, I'm curious to know what the average population ZE owners have got set on their Idle Air Screw. Mine is now at approximatly 1.75 turns out. The manual says to initially turn it out to about 3 full turns so that's why I'm asking. I did a much more indepth and meticulous setting of the set screw stop points of the throttle linkages and the resistance/voltage settings for the TPS. In all, when following directions to the letter it required to be re-adjusted no less than 4 times to get evrything to fall into place. I think I've got the knack of TPS adjustments and settings just about torqued by now.
LF1, I hope I'm not beating a dead horse on the TPS issue. So your saying that the 2500 rpm part of the test is not really TB dependant but rather O2 dependant/regulated. But Pat was saying that if the O2's were toast (no pun intended) than the ECU would go into limp mode and that is definately not happening. So, I've got a bit of a dilema here. One saying it's more than likely O2's and another saying it shouldn't. Isn't Zozo or Yoda, Mazda tech's in a former life? Perhaps they could clear some of this up.
Thanks so far guys this is definatly going to be a keeper thread for sure. Looking for a liitle feedback on a couple of those Q's when you have the time.
*John
