Bolt-in, Plug-and-Play Projector Light Kit

jrors · Post by **jrors** » July 17th, 2005, 12:13 am

A most excellent write up J and I for one will be more than happy to help support your endeavor Tatsu.

jschrauwen · Post by **jschrauwen** » July 17th, 2005, 12:25 am

Jeff K wrote:why not run a poll and see what the max most people are willing to pay for the lights and see if we could get them down to that price. just a thought

If you don't mind Jeff K I'd like to use you as an example. Since your a new member, you may not be familiar with the history behind this subject. A poll would not accomplish the needed results IMO. It's not a question of what people are willing to pay, but rather a vendors set price. The price variables are listed in the linked thread. This thread was intended to ascertain interest, so, given the details on the linked thread, are you willing to pay that price? Are you familiar with those particular components of that set-up? Are you aware of the quality of those components? Are you aware of the cost value for a similar configuration that may be available for another vehicle? Do you believe you need an upgraded or an improved lighting system for your car? What dollar value would you place on that upgrade? As you interpret that linked thread, what do you believe to be an accurate value for that particular lighting? Consider this a bit of a survey since you fall within the average age group. Thanks Jeff.

Chronicle-Rod · Post by **Chronicle-Rod** » July 17th, 2005, 12:28 am

People pay $1,000 for ICE because they can show that off and it's appreciated, plus - in the event they sell the car - they can easily strip it out again and put it in the next vehicle.

The lights, on the other hand, are $1,000 that's gone.

And it's funny that you refuse to believe what I paid, or that anyone else could get them for that, yet keep lowballing what people will likely - if it even goes through - pay for the lights. The Civic conversion is $500-600...but these lights are only $750? Try $450-500 compared to $1,000.

And yes, if you bother to check your own post history, you are against the Civic conversion. You've constantly demonstrated a totally negative view towards it, citing your "quality" mandate as if it were some Holy Grail by which all modifications had to be weighed against. Go read your own posts - if it's about Civic conversion, you're bashing them.

Dominicanchu_Nmbr1 · Post by **Dominicanchu_Nmbr1** » July 17th, 2005, 1:27 am

has a prototype at least been made? if so, can a pic be posted please? I already saw the focus example, but an mx-3 version would be nicer to see. even if its just a drawing.

Headlights are one of the most noticable things on our cars IMO. I would gladly dish out up to $600 if I could get something like this. I'm not lying, I thought about the civic lights thing, but something about it just doesn't seem natural, even though it does look nice. As for performance, I don't know because I've never had the opportunity to see it in person.

-Can a business loan be taken to try to do this? I'll look it up. Maybe Mathew Lesko can help...

jschrauwen · Post by **jschrauwen** » July 17th, 2005, 1:30 am

Chronicle-Rod wrote:People pay $1,000 for ICE because they can show that off and it's appreciated, (money well spent - not...pure vanity, and I'm guilty of it too) plus - in the event they sell the car - they can easily strip it out again and put it in the next vehicle. (very true, but in a lot of cases getting another vehicle seems to be a good excuse to get the newest toys installed and to sell, obviously at a loss, the old equipment = more money spent)

The lights, on the other hand, are $1,000 that's gone. (Gone??, Gone where? You've just dramatically improved your night time driving ability and I find that to be a tremendous return for my investment. Does this mean that your money spent on your conversion is gone also? If your situation dictated the sale of your car would you not regard the civic conversion as an added plus? I would, and that being the case, then how could it be gone? Did I forget to mention the added safety benefits that are attached to this upgrade - ICE won't give you that)

And it's funny that you refuse to believe what I paid, or that anyone else could get them for that, yet keep lowballing what people will likely - if it even goes through - pay for the lights. The Civic conversion is $500-600...but these lights are only $750? Try $450-500 compared to $1,000. I really would like to know where people are finding these body shops that will do the minimum 4 days necessary work to install plus the materials, primer, paint etc and have the end result look like it was factory all along, and do it all for less than 400 to 500 without the cost of the lighting units. That's providing that I'm just a regular person off the street. To many people that are advocating the cost effectiveness of the civic conversion are not always revealing that there were some caveats to the final cost. Those being that they did some or most of the work themselves, they got this deal from this friend, or I can get a deal from here, or I know someone who can do this or that etc etc. Those types of scenarios will not be necessary with this conversion. Are these light unit's worth $1,000?, perhaps a good read on some of the sites that Taras has listed in the past will answer that question for you. The informed will know, the uninformed will dismiss.

And yes, if you bother to check your own post history, you are against the Civic conversion. You've constantly demonstrated a totally negative view towards it, citing your "quality" mandate as if it were some Holy Grail by which all modifications had to be weighed against. Go read your own posts - if it's about Civic conversion, you're bashing them. More precisely the use of civic lighting units. Had you done the conversion with say the lights from the S2000, or Acura TL, or Audi TT, THEN I would most assuredly would say GOOD SHOW...SMART MOVE...GOOD CHOICE. Why?, because of the choice in the quality of the lighting units. I will say it again, I praise the people that take on the challenge of upgrading their lighting, it's the poor choice in what equipment they used to accomplish that challenge is what's puzzling. Tatsu has found a better way to meet that challenge. It's unfortunate that those that did the civic conversion will not be able to take advantage of this opportunity. Well not unless they undue all of the modifications done for the civic lights, which to me would seem doubtfull. I don't know....are some of the people that have already done the civic conversion a little ticked off that they won't be able to take advantage of this opportunity? It seems that that's where a lot of the apparent discontent promulgates....I don't know.

jschrauwen · Post by **jschrauwen** » July 17th, 2005, 2:20 am

Dominicanchu_Nmbr1 wrote:has a prototype at least been made? if so, can a pic be posted please? I already saw the focus example, but an mx-3 version would be nicer to see. even if its just a drawing.
Headlights are one of the most noticable things on our cars IMO. I would gladly dish out up to $600 if I could get something like this. I'm not lying, I thought about the civic lights thing, but something about it just doesn't seem natural, even though it does look nice. As for performance, I don't know because I've never had the opportunity to see it in person.
-Can a business loan be taken to try to do this? I'll look it up. Maybe Mathew Lesko can help...

No prototype yet...did you not read Tatsu's thread in the new product forum.....everything's there. $600 isn't gonna cover it...this is not bling sh*t here. Research a bit on some of the components;
http://www.rallylights.com/hella/headlamps.asp
http://www.danielsternlighting.com/prod ... ducts.html
http://www.danielsternlighting.com/tech/tech.html
http://www.rallylights.com/useful_info/ ... wiring.htm
http://www.xenonking.com/?src=overture
http://eurolamps.com/eurolamps/home.htm

After those places, look at these units for a ford focus which is close to what Tatsu is shooting for design-wise. You'll notice the corresponding part number for the Canadian (NA) unit of 69000.
http://www.hella.com/produktion/HellaPo ... us_Kit.jsp
Now go to this site for the most economical retailer for the same unit. Scroll down for part#HL69004 and you'll find a double 90mm all Hella lighting unit for the same focus where the low beam is projector and the high beam is free form. You'll also see the retail price of $669.23 for the kit. Bearing that in mind, Tatsu has a company that's going to CAD design and produce the mold and also manufacture the unit's. Remembering the cost breakdown as it relates to large scale operations like the focus and then to a small scale like ours, it's easy to comprehend the cost factors associated. The price quotes that Tatsu has proveded are more than reasonable once you've sifted through all of this.
http://www.rallylights.com/hella/custom ... rsions.asp
BTW, how do you like the design and layout of the Focus system?

jschrauwen · Post by **jschrauwen** » July 17th, 2005, 2:33 am

atlantamx3 wrote:Wow thats an intersting perspective there J... "Who would spend $1000 on ICE without batting an eye?"
Most everyone spends around that for a good ICE set-up.
BUt they whine about the price of lights that are more SAFE than the stock ones for only $800?
Wow- never thought of it like that.
Sorry to be so negative... years of being let down with similar posts has led me to that.
I would LOVE to see these be produced, although I could not afford them in the near or distant future that I can tell.
Good luck!

Awww finally, someone understands me...thanks Perry!!! For some reason I thought I might have been speaking in a foriegn language and no one was grasping the message is was trying to convey. Which I guess for the most part would be... "Here's the opportunity, let's sieze it"
I can truly understand the let-down part being an MX owner for the last 10 years.

Chronicle-Rod · Post by **Chronicle-Rod** » July 17th, 2005, 2:43 am

"I really would like to know where people are finding these body shops that will do the minimum 4 days necessary work to install plus the materials, primer, paint etc and have the end result look like it was factory all along, and do it all for less than 400 to 500 without the cost of the lighting units."

Again, you show how little you know about the work.

You haven't done it, and if you can't even be bothered to look into it, take your own advice and stop running it down. As you said: "The informed will know, the uninformed will dismiss."

Too bad you spend all your time dismissing everything except your pet project - custom projectors.

"I don't know....are some of the people that have already done the civic conversion a little ticked off that they won't be able to take advantage of this opportunity? It seems that that's where a lot of the apparent discontent promulgates....I don't know."

Now you're just attacking the people who HAVE done something to their cars. Yeah, I'm really kicking myself for spending $450 instead of waiting six months so I could invest in a set of $1,000 lights that might, or might not, actually get made sometime in the future.

V8KOMX3 · Post by **V8KOMX3** » July 17th, 2005, 3:24 am

This was becoming informative but cronical you are just arguing now you hvae made your point about the civic projectors as well as others have made there point about the custom ones now instead of arguing on someone elses post just let people read the info and don't clutter the post with junk if you have any more informative info on the civic projectors that would tell us how good they are let it rip because that is what will help people.

jschrauwen · Post by **jschrauwen** » July 17th, 2005, 3:33 am

Rod, I make numerous trips to the body shop for one thing or another, the latest being 2 days ago to drop off J-Spec chin spoiler. Although I've never professed to be an auto dody specialist but rather a consumer on the other side of the counter, my years of owning numerous vehicles has given me the knowledge and experience that comes with having to get repairs and modifications done to those vehicles. I thought I explained my interpretation in the simplest of terms and during that I also asked specific questions just so I can clarify your statements. You never answered those questions....how does one interpret that? You say I know little about the work...your right, that's why I asked the questions. Your also right about me not having done it, again, same reason I asked the questions. And I have looked into it. I felt that by going through all of the last six months of threads pertaining to civic conversions would be sufficient. Did I not go back far enough to have the most relevant data. I can also distinctively recall some one by the name of Sgt..........something from NY State who in short I believe he said that if he had to do it all over again, he wouldn't. That kind of suprised me since his conversion looked really good. I'm not sure why you believe that I dismiss everything...I'm not dismissing you..I'm talking to you right now. My pet project??? I believe that this is Tatsu's project where he's doing all of the legwork and R&D and such in British Columbia. My pet project is taking it's own shape and form this fall. "Now you're just attacking the people who HAVE done something to their cars." Sorry you feel that your being attacked. I pride myself in trying to choose an appropriate way to express myself while trying to be respectfull at the same time. I'm sorry if i hurt your feelings Rod. "Yeah, I'm really kicking myself for spending $450 instead of waiting six months so I could invest in a set of $1,000 lights that might, or might not, actually get made sometime in the future." Don't kick yourself too hard Rod, it was an honest mistake.

verzutiko · Post by **verzutiko** » July 17th, 2005, 5:47 am

My opinion on this project - excellent!
However, will the 90mm projecters be with Halogen, HID Xenon or Bi-Xenon? (Thanks for that site jschrauwen!) I have to research a bit here in my country about what is legal, but I just wanted to know if all opportunities are open. I think it would be killer-cool with those blue xenon lights, not to mention the better lightning one would get!

Tatsu, I am a potential customer of this project, but I am currently on a GB with Taras and I have to pay off some other things. But if this GB will be concluded next year around summer-autumn, then it is very likely that I will buy it.

- Lars

Tunes67 · Post by **Tunes67** » July 17th, 2005, 6:27 am

I'll add my 2 cents here.. since thats all I can afford

All I can say is that if I had a spare $1000 and I decided to spend it on better lighting for my MX-3.. I would definately go with these custom projectors over a conversion of some other lighting system. My reasoning is quite simple.. While it might be cheaper to do a conversion and even assuming the lighting between the two systems was comparable.. I'd rather have the least hassle. If folks have the time & resources & know-how to do their own custom body work.. hey kudos to them.. But for me.. I work 40 + hours a week and have other hobbies besides my MX-3.. so bolt on would be my choice simply as a time saver. And if it was that important to me, paying double for simplicity is well worth it to me. I would love to say I would support this endeavor and I can say that I would dearly love to have better lighting in my MX-3, but the fact is.. I cant and wont be able to afford this for my car at any point. Nor could I afford to do a conversion of some sort. I wont insult anyone here by saying that if it was cheaper I would be interested.. the fact is IMO.. I think the price for the product is going to depend on what each individual is willing to pay for, convenience, quality, performance & safety. Its not wrong for someone to pay $1000 for better lighting for their car, nor is it wrong for someone to pay $500 to do a conversion. Arguably, both systems perform better than stock from what I have read, so there is no right or wrong way to upgrade here. It simply becomes a matter of personal preference.

One thing I will point out here to you specifically Rod.. and please dont take this as an attack.. I know you feel strongly about this topic and are defending your opinion. But this statement:

The lights, on the other hand, are $1,000 that's gone.

Is off base in my opinion.. See thats the nice part about these lights being a bolt on part.. no modification neccessary to install OR remove them.. if you decide to sell your car.. you can remove these lights and sell them seperately.. arguably.. they could be sold used for the same price as doing a Civic projector conversion. They wouldnt have to be sold with the car unlike the civic projectors where once they are installed and the mods made are not easily reversible back to stock. You might lose as much as half your investment in these lights.. but you wouldnt lose it all.. someone would want them

Best of luck guys..

Tunes67

jschrauwen · Post by **jschrauwen** » July 17th, 2005, 11:16 am

verzutiko wrote:My opinion on this project - excellent!
However, will the 90mm projecters be with Halogen, HID Xenon or Bi-Xenon? (Thanks for that site jschrauwen!)
Thanks Lars, excellent to see someone has done the research and can make the differenciation between Halogen, Free Form Xenon and BiXenon. It was decided that the project will include the 2x 90mm units as I mentioned earlier as a cost savings measure. The rallye lights site that gives prices on these units also carries the Xenon and BiXenon units. As details get firmed up later in the project, I think it may be possible to substitute for the Xenon or Bixenon. Again keep in mind that cost cutting measures are a major concern in all aspects of this project and to that ends, a bulk buy to the yet undetermined supplier for those light units must be of a minimum size to wreap the benefits we are trying to achieve. The dimensions of Xenon and BiXenon wrt to compatibility within the new lighting assemblies would also have to be confirmed, for the most part, length of the unit. But I believe that use of the Xenon and BiXenon unit's should be a very do-able thing. Can you imagine 2 of those units in there - a BiXenon for Hi and Low beam and a Xenon for High Beam only - that would be the Cadillac of systems.
I have to research a bit here in my country about what is legal, but I just wanted to know if all opportunities are open. I think it would be killer-cool with those blue xenon lights, not to mention the better lightning one would get! Good point on the legal ramifications, you are deffinitely well read. I believe that Tatsu is steering away from that at present only I believe because it's not anticipated that there would not be enough interest in Xenon lighting that would warrant a bulk buy for the light units. Don't discount the possibility yet. I'm sure that you've also saw the cost differences once one gets into the Xenon world when looking at the link. All can see that the price forecast for these units in comparison with that site is extremely on target.

Tatsu, I am a potential customer of this project, but I am currently on a GB with Taras and I have to pay off some other things. But if this GB will be concluded next year around summer-autumn, then it is very likely that I will buy it.

- Lars

Jeff K · Post by **Jeff K** » July 17th, 2005, 8:46 pm

ok so now i think i finaly get it...

Dominicanchu_Nmbr1 · Post by **Dominicanchu_Nmbr1** » July 18th, 2005, 12:09 am

There are two things I would like out of new headlights-better than stock performance, and looks. So far, these lights have both, and to top it off, ease of use makes my lazy a-- very happy. having some1 else do the work of putting together a serious set of headlights that pop in out of the box is worth the extra cash. As for the focus lights, I'm not gonna lie, I don't care how they work. They look nice. If these end up lookin like that, then wow! Yes, me like! Only reason I haven't done the civic lights thing is cuz I'm laaaaazy. I like this idea better

.