KLZE - Worth the head ache?

[JDMChris]

Please correct me if im wrong. Im trying to wrap my head around this madness and do some homework before i make the jump.
I have come to realize that its not as simple as swapping a D16Y8 with a B16A2, which is pretty much the equivalent in Honda land.. you have to worry about the different types of KLZE motors, different heads, different cams.. etc.. holllyyyyy! lol

Lets begin with me saying, I have no intention on going 7 different places to part together a motor and work on it.. as MrMazda92 recomended, "buy a Junkyard KLG4, KL31 Cams, ZE Flat top Pistons, and do a basic rebuild" is out of the question. I want a daily driver, not a race car.. nor do i have time to search around etc.

I would like to have something ready for when my K8 blows up, its running fine now, but it got alot of millage. :p

Lets begin with the motor itself.
I'm lead to believe that there are two types of KLZE motors with different power outputs. (wikipedia K Engine page disagrees)
The one with the straight neck manifold is the one with 200HP, KL31 Cams.
The one with the curved manifold is one with ought KL31 cams, pushing 170HP.

"The two types of KLZE engines are the mx6 style and the Millenia type.
The millenia type is fitted with a curved IM and loaded with KL01 cams. These are favoured for transplant into the mx3 as they negate fitment issues on some versions.

To fit the more powerful KLZE, i would have to also acquire the curved neck manifold off a Mellenia or something and use that instead? *in order for it to fit in an MX3 with ought any problems."

How about the Wiring harness and electronics?
In order for the emissions to be tolerable, would you need the JDM ECU?
How difficult is it to swap?

Where to buy one?
JDMTigerJapanese is really close to here.. but has a horrible reputation (prolly cuz they sell soo cheap, they sell em as they get it.. just as long as it passes a compression test)
Anyone know of anywhere else?

OR.... is it time for a new car?

ps. these forums have been great. cool community. *Thumbs up

[Inodoro Pereyra]

Nope.

There's only one type of KL-ZE. That's the one that delivers 199 bhp, and comes from Japanese cars.

There are 2 kinds of KL-DE engines:

The one from the MX-6, early 626, and early Millenia, delivers 164 bhp, with a 9.2:1 CR.
The one from the late model Millenias is a DE with ZE heads, and delivers 170bhp, with 9.5:1 CR.

And then there's the KL-G4. That's a DE with ZE heads, cast crankshaft (lighter than the forged CS of the other models), and coil packs. That also produces 170bhp, with the same 9.5:1 CR.

Personally, I would never waste my money on a KL-ZE, when, for the same money or less, I can get a G4 or Milly DE, that's only 30 bhp less powerful, and everything I need for a full rebuild (which would give me a 0 mile engine).

[MrMazda92]

Just a clarification Inodoro, the G4 basically has DE heads, with SLAs and SLA cams(narrower profile, tapered, IIRC) though. The pistons are a lighter/softer material as well, to offset the reduced crank weight.

JDMChris,

The only reason I suggested the rebuilt engine is the 0 mileage factor... That's the ONLY way you can be 100% sure that your engine is basically brand new.

Aside from that, you'll be looking for a Japanese crate motor, which can be difficult to pin down. You'll want to thoroughly inspect anything you buy like that, in person, if at all possible. You'll also want to document every step of the transaction, so you don't get financially worked over.

The one alternative to that, is to try and find a low mileage rollover type junkyard car. Find a newer model Millenia, 626, MX6, etc. with under 80,000 miles on it, and pull the engine. Your best bet would be a cosmetically totaled car, with a solid drivetrain.

It all depends on your goals, honestly, but it shouldn't be enough to make you sell your car. If it is, you need to know, there are waaaay more complicated swaps, and more expensive engines, for other cars.

As far as electrical goes, you'll need an ECU and matching VAF. This will depend on which engine you go with, but don't expect to pay more than $200 between the 2. That's the high end cost, you could do much better. Swapping both of these should take no more than 10 minutes your first time.

If you truly have no interest in racing, and are looking for a bit more power, on a budget... I recommend the KLDE, Millenia DE/ZE, or KLG4 engines. Direct swap in, with under 100,000 miles, will probably outlive the car, by today's standards.

[wytbishop]

The Curved Neck and Straight Neck ZE's are identical internally for the most part. There has been talk that I cannot personally confirm that some late model ZE's had some wierd piston and camshaft combinations which, it is claimed, was done by Mazda to try to use up some leftover stuff.

Either way, if you are not heavy into performance and don't want to get all snippy about a hp here or a bit of torque there...the ZE swap is maybe the easiest swap there is.

-buy a curve neck ZE
-pull your K8
-remove the K8 distributor and install it on the ZE
-if the ZE coolant neck has a different number of sensors in it, swap the one off your K8 onto the ZE (I did that step in about 1 hr.)
-If you can get one, solder a Probinator (or equivalent) chip into a chipable ECU
-Second choice, buy a KL31 ECU online and plug it in
-bolt up your stock transmission
-install a cheap ebay MX-6/Probe header (actually you would reinstall the K8 exhaust manifolds so that you can drive to a muffler shop and have them complete your exhaust system but you get what I'm saying)
-if you have the time, money and inclination, replace water pump, timing set, oil pump, valve cover gaskets and clutch while the engine is out
-install the ZE and drive away with about 70 more HP.

The most expensive extra bit is the exhaust. The ZE will choke with the stock exhaust and not realize its full potential, but so would a DE.

[SuperK]

You know you don't HAVE to get a ZE. is it worth the hassle? I mean... it depends on how much of a hassle you're willing to put up with. Moving from a K8 to a KLAnything is great. You can do just a simple KL-DE if you would like a hassle free experience. Get a donor car, pull the engine, and the matching ECU/Airflow sensor and you're set.

Lets begin with the motor itself.
The one with the straight neck manifold is the one with 200HP, KL31 Cams.

This engine does have a higher power output, but keep in mind it's because it's also higher compression.

The one with the curved manifold is one with ought KL31 cams, pushing 170HP.

This engine has lower compression pistons and KL01 cams. Essentially it's a DE, with a different intake manifold.

How about the Wiring harness and electronics?
In order for the emissions to be tolerable, would you need the JDM ECU?
How difficult is it to swap?

You will HAVE to change the ECU, no matter what KL engine you get.
The ECU is the silver box behind the center console. You'll see it if you look behind there. It's easy: unbolt old ECU, unplug, bolt in new ECU, plug in.


Take your pros and cons of each swap. Yes, sourcing the parts to complete the ZE is a little more difficult... but once you pass the stage and you have all your components lined up (engine, matching intake and ECU) then you sacrificed a little sanity for 30 extra ponies and a lighter pocket.

If you like a heavier pocket, then grab a KL-DE from a junkyard. It will *still* be a blast to drive.

[Mooneggs]

I agree with Wytbishop... and I agree with SuperK's advice too. Just depends your skill level an how much "hassle" you will put up with. KL's are basically a straight swap in... I would compare them to the honda swap you mentioned just a little bigger motor and a few other small details (as Wyt mentioned)

[pattheriault]

going from a d16 to a b16 is actualy a bit more complicated than a k8 to KL!

K8 to KL is basicaly the same job as if you would remove a k8 to put an other k8 in!

Honda world would be more like a b16a to a b18c

[wytbishop]

I agree with Wytbishop... and I agree with SuperK's advice too.

You can't agree with both of us. We're diametrically opposed! We're like Pie vs. Cake! He's Vinegar and I'm All Dressed!

YOU MUST PICK ONE!!!

[Daninski]

Umm excuse me but where did the information about compression come from. Curved and straight were both 10 to 1, the straight neck was the one that was more guaranteed to have the Cams. If anyone can show a spec sheet on a curved neck where the pistons were not 10 to 1 I'd be interested in seeing it. Thanks

Upon choosing your KLZE pay close attention to the following because it's very possible that you may be dealing with less than reputable JDM engine shops. At the very least, perform a compression test. There should be at LEAST 200 psi in each cylinder. Some people have noted that the compression on a ZE engine should hover around 220 psi on all cylinders. Also, pay attention to the heads as they should have KL31-1A1 and KL31-101 stamped onto them. Also, remove the valve cover and inspect the cams. You should see KL31 stamped on them (striaght neck for sure, curved neck probably not). There is also removing the spark plugs. Shine a light down in the hole and you should see flat-top pistons. Finally both engines produce the SAME horsepower just at different times in their power band.

[Ryan]

....

This thread isn't helping the guy decide.

-I have no intention on going 7 different places to part together a motor and work on it is out of the question.
-I want a daily driver, not a race car
-I don't have time to search around etc.

I would like to have something ready for when my K8 blows up, its running fine now, but it got alot of millage.
It won't blow up. It will just burn a hole in your pocket through oil consumption.

Lets begin with the motor itself.
I'm lead to believe that there are two types of KLZE motors with different power outputs. (wikipedia K Engine page disagrees)
The one with the straight neck manifold is the one with 200HP, KL31 Cams.Yes. KL31 heads too.
The one with the curved manifold is one with ought KL31 cams, pushing 170HP. IT depends who you talk to, but generally this isn't a "true KLZE" Its not a KLDE either though.


Quote:
"The two types of KLZE engines are the mx6 style and the Millenia type.
The millenia type is fitted with a curved IM and loaded with KL01 cams. These are favoured for transplant into the mx3 as they negate fitment issues on some versions.

Lie.
MX-6 -> KLDE with a stubby looking short neck intake. The normal north american motor you'll find in a JY in an MX-6/Probe.
Millenia -> Bascially the KLDE as above, but with minutely higher C/R (0.3 higher, negligible) and a different manifold (curved neck). Don't confuse this with the 2.3 miller cycle supercharged engine from the Milly S. Not the same, not an easy swap either.

those motors make the same overall power. Basically. Don't piss on me for 10hp, that difference can easy be lost with maintenance differences.


To fit the more powerful KLZE, i would have to also acquire the curved neck manifold off a Mellenia or something and use that instead? *in order for it to fit in an MX3 with ought any problems."
Yes. Or a KLDE MX-6/Probe manifold. Or a KLG4 manifold from the newer 626. But I'd suggest Millenia, due to the part being designed for a more similar application.



How about the Wiring harness and electronics?
In order for the emissions to be tolerable, would you need the JDM ECU?
How difficult is it to swap?

The main things you're concerned with is the distributor, air flow meter, and ECM. the harness is the same.

Basically three options for you.

-Mx3 distributor, KL02 airflow meter (mx-6/probe and other KLDE engines), and KLDE ECM (KLxx except KL31 and KL36)

-Mx3 distributor, JE50 airflow meter (stock MX-3) and KL31/36 ECM from Jspec KLZE motors. Ebay. Like $200.

-Same as option 1, but JE50 airflow meter, and solder a chip in place of the stock one to run better fuel/ignition/VRIS maps. chip is about $50, easy to get(Stoker100 on probetalk). Soldering it in... I paid an electronics shop $20 to do it.

-Option 4 is engine management, but thats not quite for you based on what you said.




Where to buy one?
JDMTigerJapanese is really close to here.. but has a horrible reputation (prolly cuz they sell soo cheap, they sell em as they get it.. just as long as it passes a compression test)
Anyone know of anywhere else?

JDM import places, another user. Thats about it. If you search there are several threads on what to look for, as far as codes, or sludge, or damage, etc. Whatever you do, look at it before you buy it.

If you want an on the cheap performance upgrade, go find a JY KLDE from an MX-6/Probe and plop it in. The torque difference is very noticeable, and the 1/4 mile times aren't very different from a ZE. TORQUE is what matters. HP is a function of Tq and RPM...

If you go mismatching s--- all together, you will likely be disappointed. Its not like lego, everything in the system compliments eachother and if you mix it up you lose that compliment, unless you design for it....

[Ryan]

And Dan, you're on crack about the compression. Dead on about the power though.

K8 -> 9.2

DE -> 9.2 (dished pistons, higher CC heads than ZE)

G4 -> 9.5 (Mid dish pistons? same CC head as DE)

ZE -> 10.1 (flat top pistons, lower CC heads than DE)

These are all static C/R's.

Compression is going to add only a small percent change to overall power (like, 3% from 10 to 11, less from 9 to 10)

Main power comes from a system that was designed to work together and is fully operational.

[Daninski]

My comment was directed an an earlier post that compression was different from the straight to the curved neck and that just isn't so. Just trying to school this poster with the correct information.
Street Imports had a real good rep.

Get someone here who has ZE experience to accompany you to Tiger Jap. Most De's you find are real high mileage being an older engine but the G4 being newer might still be out their with low mileage.

[Nd4SpdSe]

DE -> 9.5 (dished pistons, higher CC heads than ZE

Should be 9.2:1 also for the DE. The G4 is right.

Was the KLZE worth the headache? Absolutely! I wouldn't of considered it a headache at all. I didn't do the swap, but I did all the research and was decently involved in the process. The whole thing was new to me, took a 5 grand loan and was the best thing I ever did. 70 more hp, better mileage and passed emissions tests no problem (my K8 failed when I tested her less than a year after I had her, with only 114k kms on the motor, was burning oil, and needed a water pump) and oh so much more fun!. Kept the K8 exhaust on for the summer, and come fall, I upgraded to a stainless 2.5", headers the following spring.

As said, it's basically like swapping one K8 for another, I don't know why you seem to make it so complicated.

Tiger Japan sells DE's as ZE's, that's why they have a bad rep.

[Ryan]

you're right thats a typo. fixed.

[JDMChris]

DE -> 9.5 (dished pistons, higher CC heads than ZE

Was the KLZE worth the headache? Absolutely! I wouldn't of considered it a headache at all

I was more like, my K8 is running fine, has its issuesidle is fine for the most part...If I were to swap I would need to know what motor, make sure it's the right one, and not a DE with 200k..n not all messed up. I'd need the proper esc, different IM, etc

And after all the work is done, start her up and have it sound like a motorcycle, and never pass emissions.. Lol
That's what I meant by a headache.

I'm down on that 70hp. But ughh.. Lmao Can't make up my mind.

Thanks for all the info tho ppl..