Engine Problem

Moe_maX · Post by **Moe_maX** » February 15th, 2007, 11:00 am

When i start my car a THICK cloud of white smoke exits through the tail pipe. I'm talking quite a lot, enough to cover my street. but as soon as the car warms up it runs normal. There is no power loss once started, no increase in temperature the car appears to be running normal. I've had a few different responces to the issue so far, one of them being that this is normal under really cold conditions and another that the car needs a head gasket replacement.

Any thoughts on the issue will be greatly appreciated...
Thanks

facko · Post by **facko** » February 15th, 2007, 11:37 am

im pretty sure white smoke usually has somethin to to w/ a headgasket or somethin leaking in the head, thatd be what i checked first...as for it being normal iono...never got really cold where i lived...but i never had that problem

Tunes67 · Post by **Tunes67** » February 15th, 2007, 12:23 pm

When i start my car a THICK cloud of white smoke exits through the tail pipe. I'm talking quite a lot, enough to cover my street. but as soon as the car warms up it runs normal.

I used the exact same description of the smoke cloud that came out of my truck when I started it. Now my truck is cold blooded and takes quite a while to warm up. But the cloud it could generate was gigantic. Turned out 3 of 4 sets of oil control rings were seized to the pistons. One minor rebuild consisting of new rings & valve seals and my HC emissions score went from 1547 to 21 LOL Not to mention no more cloud

If you look at the fringes of your white cloud.. you should see a blue tint to the smoke.. the center of the cloud will be too thick and white to see the blue tint.

Not sure if you live in a area where emissions tests are required.. but.. if you warm your car up.. and pay the $15 fee to have it sniffed.. a high score in the HC (Hydrocarbons) column will confirm the issue for you. A low score and Facko is probably right.. its more likely to be your head gasket.

You could always video tape the start up and post a video of it too.. thats really an easy way for people to see what the cloud(s) look like.

Cheers

Tunes67

lycanthrope · Post by **lycanthrope** » February 17th, 2007, 12:34 am

get a valve-job done on your head, you can get it boiled, bead-blasted, pressure tested, valves lapped and most importantly they'll put the new valve seals on for you, you or the machine shop can order the complete kit with seals and all gaskets you need to rebuild and re-install the head (including the head-gasket)...

if the smoke goes away after it's warm, it's most likely due to the oil dripping down your valve-stems and pooling on the valve inside the head, once you burn this oil the smoke goes away, the next morning it does the same thing because it's had time for the oil to creep down again...

good luck...

Mx3_Granny · Post by **Mx3_Granny** » February 17th, 2007, 10:24 am

Before you take it apart, do a compression test. Also check for water in oil, oil in water.

lycanthrope · Post by **lycanthrope** » February 17th, 2007, 11:48 am

good idea Granny...

also, if you want an potentially inexpensive diagnose/fix, it's possible to change the valve seals while the head is still attached to the car, i've done it before on a chevy 350 (with the same start-up symptoms), the valve cover gives you all the access you need, you will of course have to replace the valve seals according to what piston is at TDC (one method to keeping the valves from completely falling into the cylinder), an air compressor with a fitting for your sparkplug hole works excellent in addition to the piston at TDC, also helps to keep the valve completely shut while installing the springs/keep mechanisms...

delpy32 · Post by **delpy32** » February 18th, 2007, 12:23 am

def valve seals or rings...

Tropical Emerald 1993 · February 18th, 2007, 2:32 pm

How much is the usual cost of mechanic repairing seals and rings?

Tunes67 · Post by **Tunes67** » February 18th, 2007, 4:04 pm

i've done it before on a chevy 350 (with the same start-up symptoms), the valve cover gives you all the access you need,

This is misleading.. a chev 350 is a completely different configuration than our B6 engines. They dont use a OHC at all.. and the valve train isnt inset into the body of the head like on our B6's. I am not saying you cant do the valve seals while the head is still on the block.. but its no where near as simple as a doing them on a SBC engine.

His description of his cloud of smoke far exceeds anything valve seals would produce alone. Even if all of them were bad. The main time oil gets past valve seals is during one of two situations. One.. when the engine is shut down.. the oil will run down past the valve seal and down the valve stem and pool up on the piston top where it then burns off when the engine is started again. But this isnt likely to be more than a teaspoon of oil per cylinder.. so in a 4 banger engine.. this isnt going to produce enough smoke to envelope your neighborhood. Two.. oil can get sucked past valve seals when engine vacuum spikes high.. when you rev your engine and let your foot off the gas for example.. you vacuum shoots way up.. if your valve seals are really bad.. you will suck oil past them and get puffs of smoke out the exaust.. again.. even if all valve seals were bad.. this condition wouldnt create a cloud of such magnatude. Clouds of oil smoke that big are indicative of bad oil control rings. Yes valves seals can contribute to the issue.. but clouds bigger than a house are going to be oil control rings for sure.

Tunes67

lycanthrope · Post by **lycanthrope** » February 20th, 2007, 3:16 am

i never claimed it to be easy Tunes, just potentially inexpensive...

and yes, it is a completely different configuration, however, at the "valve level", ford.chevy.mazda.etc have the same mechanics, valves, springs, keeps; and with the correct tools and the correct mechanic it is extremely feasible to change the seals without removing the head, in all honesty it probably easier on these ohc's because you don't have to inspect hydraulic lifters, push rods, or adjust valve lash (while the engine is running) just to get the engine back in a working state...

~20 degrees F is cold, this alone could emphasize the cloud effect, the unburned oil particles that become airborn are condensed and continue to warm the cold air around them, sustaining the warm vapor cloud effect, and besides, not all the oil that is dripped overnight falls into the cylinders to get burnt of in the first few combustions, because all the intake valves aren't open at once, this leaves the oil trapped in the port until gravity, air and gasoline vapors passing over it move it to be burned in the cylinder, thus creating a time-release effect of the oil that passed the valve seals, besides, moe_max failed to mention the length and width of his street or even if he was traveling while 'fumigating' his "street", so your exagerated guess is as good as mine...

as far as Emerald is inquiring, a valve seal job is substantially cheaper if one is not talked into removing the head, and for ~20-30 bucks for the good seals (ones with spring or wire reinforcements), valve cover gasket and a few hours labor from a good mechanic (3-4 hours), you are looking at a seemingly transparent repair for your engine, on the other hand, if you are changing the rings, the engine is pulled and most likely completely rebuilt or replaced with an engine in better shape (these sometimes come with a warranty, you just have to see if it outweighs the hassle of doing the same thing again, if it doesn't perform as expected), so basically, lots of labor, parts, "rules of thumb" & time are involved in this process...
leon