KLZE confusion, trying to sort rumor from reality...

[Josh]

Why does this matter!? Why is it such a BIG deal!? Why are we arguing for the sake of arguing!? Why is the sky blue!? why .. why .. why..

Just stop dude it does not matter. You are the only one in this thread who cares. And several others who have posted in here are just as knowledgeable and even more so. The two have different heads. the combustion chambers are different, a different shape, but from what I recall they were almost identical in volume. And the DE head only needed to have like 10 thousands shaved off to match the KL31's.

Find the results and post them. They are on PT somewhere.

[MrMazda92]

The big deal is that so many join this forum and think "omgz I can bolt in 70 hp y0", and then many spend the money for an imported engine, push ~175 BHP, and cry about it. The senior membership even ADVISES them to do so.

I'm done talking about this, it's like arguing politics with a crowd of Red vs. Blue supporters, who only support their favorite color "cuz daddy was a ______, and so am I!"

If anyone really wants to make even 200 BHP(let alone more) out of a K series engine, I suggest you research elsewhere. This forum treats information newer than 2004 like black magic, it wasn't "proven" by one of the original 500 members on MX-3.com, so it couldn't be true.

Between a recently "retired" forum member screwing me in a financial transaction, then defaming my character publicly, and receiving PITY while running away like a beaten dog, having people undersell me on parts that I have boxed up and ready to ship, and this constant attitude of "That's not true, because I built my car THIS way, and that's the only way to do it.", I'm just thoroughly disgusted with this forum...

There are some wonderful people here, that I will continue to consider my friends, but I can't do the internet anonymity crap anymore. Behind their keyboard, everyone's an expert on everything. They take 20 minutes to reply to a 2 sentence message because they need to google information in order to formulate a coherent(while being shallow, lacking useful content) reply, in an attempt to "one up" the other person by appearing more knowledgeable on the subject. Then, if the original poster makes the poor judgement call of attempting to correct them, it leads to an argument, and eventually derails to the point that names are called, fingers are pointed, and the person who only wanted to HELP OTHERS ends up walking away shaking their head.

I now have a 99% certainty why David Coleman's forum signature says what it does, and why so many other truly knowledgeable people have left these forums... Anyone offering information that isn't already 100% established and widely accepted is treated like a Leper.

I'm no longer going to post any discoveries or workarounds for common problems, or update my worklog with unconventional projects. If it's not in the 5+ year out of date FAQ sections, it must be "impossible", so I'm leaving it that way. If anybody wants to see something different, or less widely known, feel free to talk to me elsewhere. I don't trip and fall over new information often, but I am always willing to share what I have learned with others. I just can't force people to accept anything they don't want to.

Enjoy the dark ages MX-3.com.

[Josh]

If that is you're perception I feel bad for you Blake.

Things are not always as they appear or how one takes things written in a forum.

What I can tell you about the original post is as follows from Mazda:

1.8L K8DE - 130 Crank HP
1.8L K8ZE - 135 Crank HP Japan Australia only
2.0L KFZE - 159 Crank HP
2.5L KLDE - 164 Crank HP available US (Millenia) and EU (Xedos9)
2.5L KLG4 - 170 Crank HP
2.5L KLZE - 199 Crank HP this engine was available in the Eunos 800 (same as Milly for the US) and MX6, available in Japan and Australia only.

The ZE was offered in theMX-6 and Millenia under the Eunos 800 name in only Japan and Australia ONLY. These ZE's came with a curve neck IM. All other country's received the DE. Now the US Millenia came with a DE BUT it had KL31 heads and a curve neck IM, I have run across several in the PnP.

SO if you have an MX-3 GS and plop in a ZE to replace the K8 looks like it is a 69 crank HP increase. These are the HP number from Mazda.

My numbers are off on my own car as my tires are a bit oversized.

[marcdh]

* JDM MX-6 had the straight neck klze manifold with KL31 throttle body. And everything else 'true' ze.

[Josh]

* JDM MX-6 had the straight neck klze manifold with KL31 throttle body. And everything else 'true' ze.

Oops I forgot to add that.

[RX8SE3P]

Mr mazda92 I actually agree with you. Yes tuning and ancillaries etc makes a big difference and absolutely i agree the de and ze are not all that different in power. In fact a healthy de with the right tuning, full exhaust setup will easily match and beat many ze engines out there.

I would also recommend and personally go down the de path if i was to ever do another build. They're a dime a dozen with the same potential if not more.

[RobMinhas]

So just to clarify in one post here, in order to achieve the 199HP to the crank, a KL-ZE with:

KL31 heads
KL31 camshafts
KL31 throttle body
7 Nipple disty
No EGR
10:1 compression pistons
Straight neck Manifold
Typically from a Japanese MX6

and also the KL-36 ECU and JE50 VAF?

I'm iffy on my v6 stuff so I wanted to ask.

[MrMazda92]

So just to clarify in one post here, in order to achieve the 199HP to the crank, a KL-ZE with:

KL31 heads
KL31 camshafts
KL31 throttle body
7 Nipple disty
No EGR
10:1 compression pistons
Straight neck Manifold
Typically from a Japanese MX6

and also the KL-36 ECU and JE50 VAF?

I'm iffy on my v6 stuff so I wanted to ask.

+ a larger diameter exhaust, free flowing muffler, and larger resonator/cat to top it off. The "Real KLZE" makes most of it's power in the high RPMs(I believe 6,700?), which will be drastically reduced by an undersized exhaust. DRASTICALLY.
+ "Recommended octane", equivalent to that used in the J-spec MX-6.

With all of that COMBINED, you have the POTENTIAL to hit nearly 200 BHP.

Plopping it in with K8/DE tuning and 2" exhaust, with a super restrictive muffler(Factory sounds like HEAVEN, but robs power like nothing else in the system), will net you maybe 10 BHP more than a DE or Millenia engine, for a hell of a lot more money. Not to mention the rampant problems with "Importers" selling engines with spun bearings, seized cams, blown rings, and many other issues.

There is a reason threads like this exist:
http://forums.probetalk.com/showthread.php?t=1701245892
That thread isn't 8 pages long because importers have a sterling reputation.

The ProbeTalk guys have bought easily 10x the "Real ZE" engines that MX-3 owners have, and ignorant as most of them are about cars in general, few will pretend the engines are a gift from God above.

I don't know jack about this though, so I'm out.

[MrMazda92]

* JDM MX-6 had the straight neck klze manifold with KL31 throttle body. And everything else 'true' ze.

The "True ZE" makes 200 BHP from air filter to exhaust pipe, with tuning included. Add some exhaust restrictions, take away the higher octane fuel and less "nature friendly" tuning, and show me your 200 BHP A-spec MX-3. Hell, show me 185.


Read this:
http://www.corksport.com/project-mx3-dyno-2.html

I'll make it easy. Read the bottom line. Check the dyno graph. J-Spec tuning. Better than stock MX-3 exhaust. With a 15% drivetrain loss(That's being generous, it's likely more like 12%), even with a FAR less restrictive exhaust, they made less than 200 BHP at the crank.

Maybe they were as ignorant as I am.

Edit: I just reread the CorkSport build page, again...
Their best run was 168 WHP
- J-Spec tuning
- Headers(Designed for K8, still better than factory)
- A high flow cat(flows more freely than factory)
- No exhaust from the headers back

Maybe the dyno was broken.

[wytbishop]

I'll make it easy. Read the bottom line. Check the dyno graph. J-Spec tuning. Better than stock MX-3 exhaust. With a 15% drivetrain loss(That's being generous, it's likely more like 12%), even with a FAR less restrictive exhaust, they made less than 200 BHP at the crank.

Let's apply a bit of actual math to this. The previous dyno they posted of the K8 showed a max of 115.3. If we accept that the published hp rating of 138 is accurate then that dyno run showed a friction loss of 16.4%. The ZE dyno graph shows a max run of 168.7. Do we agree that it's safe to assume that the same car and tranny will exhibit the same losses from the clutch to the road? Good...then with a 16.4% friction loss the ZE made 201.9hp at the crank. Seems about right.

They took a 115.3hp engine out and wound up with 165-166hp (with exhaust)...that's a gain of 50-51hp. That is exactly equal to (198-138)*.85.

The Corksport ZE project proves that you can put a JDM ZE into an MX-3 and net a gain of 60 crankshaft hp....which is exactly the published difference between the two engines.

I don't think the same can be said of any Millenia engine, but if you can do it I will happily admit that I am wrong.

[MrMazda92]

Let's apply a bit of actual math to this. The previous dyno they posted of the K8 showed a max of 115.3. If we accept that the published hp rating of 138 is accurate then that dyno run showed a friction loss of 16.4%. The ZE dyno graph shows a max run of 168.7. Do we agree that it's safe to assume that the same car and tranny will exhibit the same losses from the clutch to the road? Good...then with a 16.4% friction loss the ZE made 201.9hp at the crank. Seems about right.

Wikipedia for MX-3 GS - 130 HP(Crank)
That matches Josh's quote, as well as every other written/spoken rating of the stock MX-3 V6 option that I have ever seen or heard.

Which puts it at ~110-111 HP to the wheels with a 15% friction loss.

In short, the answer to this: "Do we agree that it's safe to assume that the same car and tranny will exhibit the same losses from the clutch to the road?"

Is a giant YES.

A "200 BHP" "ZE" at it's highest ever listed power output(200 BHP), which as Josh and many others have said is a few HP high, this 15% friction loss puts it at 170.

That being said, the CorkSport KLZE performed below even that, after having an aftermarket exhaust installed(which was quoted on CorkSport's original build page as freeing up ~4 WHP with the stock K8), not to mention headers.

I say that's enough to prove that the KLZE doesn't make close to 200 BHP in an MX-3 with an upgraded exhaust, let alone a bone stock one.

Yes, you can push them to above and beyond 200 BHP. No, you won't do it with a 2" exhaust and American tuning.

Sorry to step on anyone's toes. Go dyno your cars.

[wytbishop]

You realize that you're quibbling over single digit numbers....and you're not really engendering conversation with the attitude.

[MrMazda92]

Quibbling aside... People wanting to defend the idea that they drive a 200 BHP MX-3 shouldn't be enough to make them ignore the obvious truth... nor lie to satisfy their ego.

The J-spec MX-6 makes ~200 BHP, NOBODY is denying this.

Pretending(yes, at this point, it is pretending) that putting the same engine, untuned, into an MX-3 with undersized exhaust will produce 200 BHP, is pathetic(that's putting it kindly).

Is the engine capable of producing 200+ BHP? Hell yeah!

Will it do so with a 2" exhaust, super restrictive muffler, and A-spec tuning? Hell no!

Even with the proper tuning, there are countless threads crammed full of "I feel the power drop off over 5K RPMs!!", when the engines top out at ~6,700. Why? They are running stock MX-3(2") piping, with a 20 year old catalytic converter and a very restrictive muffler(remember, this was designed to give these cars an APPEALING TONE), that was dyno proven to reduce horsepower by ~5 WHP(Going off of the original CorkSport build page, the new multi-link one is less comprehensive, but I'm sure Nd4SpdSe or someone else has the exact numbers CorkSport quoted).

People need to swallow their pride, quit trying to explain away common sense, and get on with reality.
I would love to make 250 BHP, should I bolt in a "KLZE" and pretend it is so, just so that I can feel superior? Hell, I'll be lucky to make 230 with a UDP, powesteering/AirCon delete, headers, 2.5" exhaust w/ highflow cat, and DYNO TUNING.


Show me ONE MX-3 with a "KLZE", running factory tuning & a K8 exhaust, with a dyno graph above 190 BHP or 170WHP and I will admit here for everybody that I know jack about engines. I want to see the engine bay, mod list, and dyno graph.


Put your money where your mouth is, ANYONE.
Show me ONE, and I'll reimburse you for the dyno session, you have my word!
If I am as stupid, ignorant, and clueless as you all seem to believe, you shouldn't hesitate for even a moment.

Prove me wrong.

Free dyno session, for anyone confident enough in this farce to risk a little money.

Charlie,
I'm not sure how you like being lied to, called out publicly as an idiot, or repetitively corrected by people bandying about with decade old misinformation, but I don't take it with a smile.

For what it's worth, I honestly believe that if you(and others) read farther than 2 sentences into any one of my previous 5 or 6 posts, you would see that what I say is true. The math lines up, I would consider CorkSport a reputable source of information, and I imagine they didn't dyno their car with their a--.

[RX8SE3P]

You realize that you're quibbling over single digit numbers....and you're not really engendering conversation with the attitude.

Agreed, also I don't think the original post of the thread helped either. I think everyone (well at least myself) has an understanding that no one ever seems to make 200HP with the ZE (over 160whp stock). Also that there is not a huge difference at all in the real world between the ZE and DE. Both the same engines with slight differences here and there.

Basically if we could get some stock domestic spec MX6's with no CEL codes and low kms and their dyno graphs..... Then compare to some true stock Japanese spec MX6's dyno results. We could say if the results are within 15whp then the KLZE is overrated, if it's above an average of 15-20whp more, then the klze is the bestest - Problem solved.

[wytbishop]

First I would point out that I haven't seen anyone lie to you or call you stupid. I have seen several respected members share their opinions, which have at times differred from yours, in a reasonable and rational way, and a lot of ranting from you.

I would also point out, because you have mentioned it many times in this discussion and it seems central to your argument, the issue of the 20 year old, 2" MX-3 exhaust. I can't think of a single member worklog that shows the use of the stock exhaust after installing their ZE except in most cases to get it to an exhaust shop, as I did, to have the 2.25 or 2.5" exhaust system installed. I also can't think of many members who have installed their ZE and run a stock K8 ECU with any success. Eveyone that has, has done so out of necessity because they could find or afford either a KL31 or 36 ECU or a Stoker or Probinator chip and hated it and said so. So your suggestion that people are driving around with "A-spec tuning" doesn't make sense to me either. I have heard of guys running Probe ECU and VAF and claiming positive results. I have never bought that either so if that's your argument we agree on at least that much.

I submit that the number of pathetic members who are "Pretending that putting the same engine, untuned, into an MX-3 with undersized exhaust will produce 200 BHP." (<---that would be the ranting I was referring to) is close to zero. No one is making the claim that you suggest we all are.

I would suggest that the number of members, like myself, who installed a JDM ZE with a chipped ECU (or KL31/36) and upgraded to 2.25 or 2.5" exhaust with a good quality aftermarket header and resonator/muffler combination and who would dyno 160-170 hp is in the dozens. Throughout the history of this swap I bet it's in the hundreds. Even if losses are only 12%, that's 182-193BHP and for all but the most maniacle hair splitters that's close enough considering wear and aging sensors and a million other things.

Lastly, I want to say that I'm a (almost) 42 year old, grown a-- man. I am not plagued with pride. I don't need to boast or strive to impress. More than that, I work my butt off to be a really, really excellent human being. I have tried continually to conduct a rational conversation with you. I think it's a valuable discussion and from the time I entered it I said so. Your behaviour in this thread has been extremely unbecoming on several occasions. Engineering has taught me a lot. I don't know everything but I know a rational argument when I hear one and I know the difference between evidence and proof. Your argument has not been rational. You have some evidence, but you treat it like proof and it isn't.

For the record, when asked I tell people that my car would probably dyno at about 165-170hp, but if I guy said to me "I put in the 200hp JDM version"...or something like that I would not consider him a pathetic boaster. I would know what that meant and so would anyone familiar with our world.