KLZE confusion, trying to sort rumor from reality...

[MrMazda92]

I catagorically disagree with that statement.

The North American Millenia 2.5L V6 is a KL-DE. Unless someone has evidence to the contrary, I believe it has the same piston and resulting compression ratio, as well as the same KL-01 cam as a North American Probe/MX-6/626. It has square intake ports and bigger injectors but as far as I know it is still rated to make 170hp. In an MX-3 with K8 injectors, a chipped ECU and JE-50 VAF and 2.25" or 2.5" exhaust with a standard EBAY header it would pull 145-150 on a chassis dyno. Same ballpark as any stock Probe/MX-6/626 DE you dropped in. It's a DE.

My Straight Neck JDM ZE with higher compression and KL-31 cam, chipped K801 ECU (Probinator claims he copied the KL31 map and "tweeked" it but that's another question), same VAF, same exhaust would pull 170-175. Countless members have done so. That's just fact.

Why would Probe/MX-6/626 guys have been swapping their DE's out for JDM engines all these years? If the Millenia engine was mechanically the same as the JDM ZE, straight, curved or otherwise, they would have been buying them up over here for a dozen years now. You would not have been able to find a Millenia with a 2.5L engine in it anywhere for a decade by now.

Honestly, on this one, I can shove proof down anybody's throat that I want to.

Look at KL131 heads and KL101 heads from the underside. The combustion chamber on the KL31 heads has less squish area than the KL101s, which is part of the .8 static CR bump that the "real KLZE" benefits from. Hey, wait, what other engine has KL131 heads!?



I'm dressed in NICE clothes right now, but if anybody wants to argue this point, I will change into grungy crap, and I will take one of my KL131 heads(from a '95 Millenia), and a KL101 head from a '94 626, AND FEED THEM SIDE BY SIDE PICTURES of the combustion chambers.

Charlie, this is SIMPLE.

A Millenia engine with J-SPEC TUNING and exhaust/intake specifications WILL produce more power than a "True KLZE" with Millenia(A-SPEC) TUNING and exhaust/intake specifications.

Why? The difference in power produced isn't magically created by a tiny difference in cam profile. You're an Engineer, for the love of God, why do you deny this?

[Josh]

I think you are arguing yourself here...

I will put it to you like this You are correct.

The A-spec Milly engine is a DE with KL31 heads. KL31 heads have a different combustion chamber than the KL01's this is true. I think you have gotten everyone turned around and we are trying to stop spinning but it is not working.

to touch on what you said earlier the KJ is a variant designed off of the DE. The KLG4 is the 4th Generation of the DE meaning there were 3 variants that came before it. Now there were several comp ratio's as far as the pistons go due to country and model. they needed to be tailored for optimum performance for the fuel available, and emissions of the country.

This is not Rocket science all the factual specs you want from Mazda on all models from all around the world can be found at the library.

[MrMazda92]

I think you are arguing yourself here...

I will put it to you like this You are correct.

The A-spec Milly engine is a DE with KL31 heads. KL31 heads have a different combustion chamber than the KL01's this is true. I think you have gotten everyone turned around and we are trying to stop spinning but it is not working.

to touch on what you said earlier the KJ is a variant designed off of the DE. The KLG4 is the 4th Generation of the DE meaning there were 3 variants that came before it. Now there were several comp ratio's as far as the pistons go due to country and model. they needed to be tailored for optimum performance for the fuel available, and emissions of the country.

This is not Rocket science all the factual specs you want from Mazda on all models from all around the world can be found at the library.

I am getting frustrated Josh, because people are speaking of things that they do not understand. Myself included, on a few of the points that have been argued... I'm trying to stick to what I do know, from personal experience. It's hard, when the arguments "countering" mine look like this: Well, this 10 year old thread from a time when KL swaps were RARE said this, and I haven't found more up to date information(which does exist, I just haven't looked), that disproved the rumors I am now parroting"


I have to start arguing with information that I believe to be reputable, but have not personally verified... It gets tricky, because I hate doing exactly that... Which is why I am willing to hammer the point about the combustion chamber differences into anybody who dares to argue against it. I can physically prove that, as well as the difference in piston crown height and valve pocket relief measurements for both A-Spec and J-Spec pistons.


As you said, the facts are there for all of us to see... If we bother to look in the right places.
Are the Millenia pistons different from the imported J-spec pistons? YES. Are there realistic numbers posted as to the actual static CR of the Millenia? NO.


Ask anybody who has done a "KLZE piston swap" into a "KLDE block" what their compression numbers were. I'll give you a hint, they are lower than "True KLZE" compression numbers, ACROSS THE BOARDS. Why might this be? The differences in combustion chamber shape. Period.


Everyone wants to believe that swapping a factory J-spec "KLZE" into an MX-3 will give them 70 free horsepower, who the hell wouldn't love that? The PROBLEM with that logic, is that the engine is only part of the equation. Maybe I should have never mentioned the Millenia engine, since it obviously confused every single person who read this thread. I'll start a new one, never mentioning the word Millenia, so new members can get some honest information without filtering through as much bulls---.

[Sleeper6]

Honestly, on this one, I can shove proof down anybody's throat that I want to.

Look at KL131 heads and KL101 heads from the underside. The combustion chamber on the KL31 heads has less squish area than the KL101s, which is part of the .8 static CR bump that the "real KLZE" benefits from. Hey, wait, what other engine has KL131 heads!?

I will take one of my KL131 heads(from a '95 Millenia), and a KL101 head from a '94 626, AND FEED THEM SIDE BY SIDE PICTURES of the combustion chambers.

Ding Ding Ding! Congradulations you found the one exception. The 95 milli is the only one I have ever found with the KL131 heads, all others are kl101s with DE valvetrain. Hence my solid lifter (like a ZE) or hydraulic lifter (like a DE) argument. That is the only variant in a milli that is close to the true JDM ZE motor. All the rest of the KLs are variants of KL lower ends with various heads/intakes such as DEs or G4s (granted the oil routing is different but essentialy a similiar block)

Now, wtf was with the K8 can make a ZE? We ought to pull your motors for that one, even if it was out of frustration.

Can we please /thread? I see alot of missinformation coming from this thread from a frustrated person with good intentions.

[MrMazda92]

I have yet to see a single example of a car that came from the factory with a mismatched intake/head setup.

There are rumors, just like those of the "oval port curveneck manifolds", that have never been substantiated... Without cross-referencing the block number to the VIN, any and all claims otherwise are utterly worthless. That's like trying to claim that Mazda sold MX-3s stateside with DE heads, just because one confused idiot bolted the heads from a DE into his MX-3 before junking it(because it didn't run, or ran like crap).

SLAs were G4 only, that was proven and documented 100 times over. I have links to verify, should you need them... All other variants carried HLAs.

The K8/KL comment was sarcasm, continuing the tangent of the statement that piston crown height/valve relief depth make the engine, other factors being left out. They were equally incorrect, and I hope that nobody took my sarcasm seriously.

[Josh]

lolz

Why argue? lets discuss...

Well bolting a real ZE into an MX3 will net you 50-60 wheel hp untuned over the 130 hp K8 that dyno's to the wheels at like 108 hp.

I did not see anyone arguing that the KL31 combustion chamber were the same. They are different, you can read that on PT all day long. I think where the miscommunication is, is that you are saying they will not be the same if swapped and others are just saying that you will still see a gain out of it. Which both is true.

IDK knowing what I do now. I would build a DE all day long and not wast my time trying to source a ZE. DE > high comp pistons> KL31 cams> G4 mani> DE heads ported and polished> and maybe a G4 crank.

Edit: Blake I have personally seen several Milly's with KL31 heads in the PnP. You are not in the yards enough. Ask WagZE he originally convinced me of this. I would not have believed him had I not seen it for myself.

[RX8SE3P]

All Eunos800 engines in Australia are KL31. However their cams are KL01 and their pistons are lower compression to put up with the cheap fuel here.

Can't we agree that the highest HP engine that came out in the 2.5L KL design was the one with:

KL31 heads
KL31 camshafts
KL31 throttle body
7 Nipple disty
No EGR
10:1 compression pistons
Straight neck Manifold
Typically from a Japanese MX6

This is the FULL KL31 or "KLZE" as everyone calls it. Anything else is a different type of KL engine and should not be referred to as a "KLZE" or a FULL KL31 spec engine.

[Sleeper6]

All Eunos800 engines in Australia are KL31. However their cams are KL01 and their pistons are lower compression to put up with the cheap fuel here.

Can't we agree that the highest HP engine that came out in the 2.5L KL design was the one with:

KL31 heads
KL31 camshafts
KL31 throttle body
7 Nipple disty
No EGR
10:1 compression pistons
Straight neck Manifold
Typically from a Japanese MX6

This is the FULL KL31 or "KLZE" as everyone calls it. Anything else is a different type of KL engine and should not be referred to as a "KLZE" or a FULL KL31 spec engine.

+1!

/thread

[Josh]

All Eunos800 engines in Australia are KL31. However their cams are KL01 and their pistons are lower compression to put up with the cheap fuel here.

Can't we agree that the highest HP engine that came out in the 2.5L KL design was the one with:

KL31 heads
KL31 camshafts
KL31 throttle body
7 Nipple disty
No EGR
10:1 compression pistons
Straight neck Manifold
Typically from a Japanese MX6

This is the FULL KL31 or "KLZE" as everyone calls it. Anything else is a different type of KL engine and should not be referred to as a "KLZE" or a FULL KL31 spec engine.

+1!

/thread

I'm with them ^^

[MrMazda92]

lolz

Why argue? lets discuss...

Well bolting a real ZE into an MX3 will net you 50-60 wheel hp untuned over the 130 hp K8 that dyno's to the wheels at like 108 hp.

I did not see anyone arguing that the KL31 combustion chamber were the same. They are different, you can read that on PT all day long. I think where the miscommunication is, is that you are saying they will not be the same if swapped and others are just saying that you will still see a gain out of it. Which both is true.

IDK knowing what I do now. I would build a DE all day long and not wast my time trying to source a ZE. DE > high comp pistons> KL31 cams> G4 mani> DE heads ported and polished> and maybe a G4 crank.

Edit: Blake I have personally seen several Milly's with KL31 heads in the PnP. You are not in the yards enough. Ask WagZE he originally convinced me of this. I would not have believed him had I not seen it for myself.

~15% drivetrain loss, approximately for a FWD. From the 198 you quoted at the crank, leaves 168.3 WHP.
~15% drivetrain loss, approximately for a FWD. From the 130 everybody quotes, leaves 110.5 WHP.
This is with J-SPEC TUNING. 57.8 WHP difference. Lose the tuning, and you'll lose a good 10 WHP, minimum. Keep the stock 2" exhaust, with a super quiet, restrictive muffler, and you can drop that another 7-10 WHP easily.

Everyone arguing that "ZE Pistons" are the sole cause of the misquoted bump in static CR claimed that the combustion chamber was identical. They did it indirectly, as they didn't know a lick about the engines they defend so zealously.

All Eunos800 engines in Australia are KL31. However their cams are KL01 and their pistons are lower compression to put up with the cheap fuel here.

Can't we agree that the highest HP engine that came out in the 2.5L KL design was the one with:

KL31 heads
KL31 camshafts
KL31 throttle body
7 Nipple disty
No EGR
10:1 compression pistons
Straight neck Manifold
Typically from a Japanese MX6

This is the FULL KL31 or "KLZE" as everyone calls it. Anything else is a different type of KL engine and should not be referred to as a "KLZE" or a FULL KL31 spec engine.

You are mostly correct man, however you left out the 2 KEY POINTS that nobody posting so far(besides Josh, and myself) caught on to, which are TUNING, and ANCILLARIES.

I want you all to read this one idea, and put the TINIEST BIT OF THOUGHT into it, before replying:
Bone stock Millenia engine.
J-Spec MX-6 platform, changing NOTHING but the engine(from throttle body to oilpan)

You would not see 170 BHP measured at the crank. You would see upwards of 180 BHP, possibly broaching 185.

Why is this, if the oh so mighty "KLZE" somehow magically creates 30 more horsepower with cams and a pathetically small bump in static compression?

TUNING. ANCILLARIES.

I want one person to give a REAL WORLD, SCIENTIFICALLY VERIFIABLE reason why this is possible. We have engineers, we have genuinely ingenious mechanics on this forum, so why are people acting like terrified sheep?

[MrMazda92]

This is like a political discussion... The moment somebody steps in, speaking against an established idea(incorrect or correct, it doesn't matter), people try to shut them down.

Fine. I am starting to understand why those who build real powerhouse KLs don't talk about their builds.

Black magic and devil worship, all hail the KLZE.

[crazycanadian]

Settle down Blake.. Passion has you blind... You seem to have researched this lots and come up with your own answers or lack of proof...

Everyone here in one shape or form has agreed to everything you've talked about... We just aren't making a big deal about it... We will all make our own choices baised on what we can find for parts, our goals and what our budget is...

Make it happen Blake.. Show us how its done... Be that rebel ..

I am curious about the info on difference combustion chambers... Do you have links to the info??

[MrMazda92]

I've put way too much into this, unfortunately.

If I had even 10% of the budget that some of the membership do, I would be pushing 300 BHP NA. $2,500 could do it. Too bad I'm broke.

I don't have links, the best I could do would be to post pictures... I believe Michael Perry tore into the subject on ProbeTalk a while back. I know that there were TONS of threads about DE heads having vastly more potential than ZE though.

I need to seriously deep clean a KL131 head. I have MINT KL101 heads saved up for a special porting project... I can photograph those for a good example of KL101.

[crazycanadian]

Thats to bad... What you really need to do is measure the combustion chambers of both heads.. Just because there are differences doesn't mean its smaller...

I am to lazy to search for that info... I also don't care enough... It would be nice to see pictures of it though..

[MrMazda92]

Michael Perry CC'd both sets of heads, the information used to be available on his website. The KL101/1a1 heads had less material along the outer wall of the combustion chamber, which is supposed to be part of why those heads have better flow patterns, something about the valves being less shrouded than KL131 heads, I believe?
It's been a long time since I read that information, and I haven't been able to find it anywhere else... Michael edited almost all of his threads on ProbeTalk after his ridiculous IP ban, courtesy of the "owner" of the site.

I can't blame him... He backed up almost every claim he made on those forums, and poured THOUSANDS of hours, and thousands of his own money into researching KL performance, only for skeptics to flame and deny what he had to say.
It still makes me chuckle that his engines produced more power than every single naysayer, by no small margin.

I guess I could CC the combustion chambers myself, but would any of you actually be willing to accept something previously unknown to you, that doesn't exist in 10 year old, outdated archives?

I'm going to email Michael Perry, asking for his results of the chamber comparison... If he is unable to share the information, I will CC one of my MINT KL101 heads.

Would someone with a completely clean KLZE head be willing to CC 3 combustion chambers, and email/PM me the results? Photographs of your measuring process would be nice as well... I will document my own measurements, to avoid any claims of fraudulent results when people hear something they don't like.