Finally visited a dyno. Apparently running super rich. :(

[Whisper]

I could dyno both, if I had both. Local wrecker has the parts, but VAF is $100 and ECU is $150. I don't know if I want to spend that much.

However, if I manage to hook up the coolant sensor this weekend, I'll dyno with that and see if it makes any difference.

I'd go MS, but I've no experience with car electronics and it looks really complicated to me. No doubt tuning the mixture would gain you good power. If the cars are running as rich as they do, then there's a lot of power lost.

[RX8SE3P]

My friend dyno'd about 135HP (approx 100KW) recently and he has a pretty healthy ZE IMO and a fair few bolt-on mods (headers, exhaust etc). He was running real rich too, much like you.

You dyno'd 145KHP (108KW) which is a bit better but not much and once again rich.

I read an article that was made years ago with a guy who put a ZE in his MX-3 and he dyno'd 115KW (154HP) on an aftermarket engine management system. http://autospeed.com/cms/A_2730/article.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

From the looks of it, he never had headers or any major mods. Don't even know if he had an exhaust. And the major thing - he was using a K8 IM!! If he used the ZE IM and had exhaust + headers I seriously think he'd be in the 130KW (175HP ATW) territory easily. That's a fair bit more than what we're seeing here.

Definitely something wrong, I hope we can figure it out. Btw - you could always try get in contact with someone on the MX6 forums or someone who has an MX6 who is willing to let you borrow/buy some stuff from them.

[onlytrueromeo]

w/ engine management you should be able to do better than 155hp, more like 180+.

[Whisper]

Says it's a piggy, so it's not full control. 155 is pretty reasonable with no bolt-ons and K8 IM.

[stoker100]

i originally posted this a few months ago on the topic:
http://www.mx-3.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=69959" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
that answers a few questions that have been repeated here.

as for the engine running rich, the probinator is a modified KL85 EPROM with ZE maps, it does not contain ZE multipliers and is therefore not the same as the real thing. asking why the ZE runs rich on the probinator is as simple, its not the right ECU for the engine. i dont want to tread on peoples toes but NOBODY knows everything about the KL ECU so modifications made are never 100% perfect.

if you have an aftermarket FP and stock FPR thats the first place i would look
2nd would be your plugs (check for fouling), then the cat converter

[Mooneggs]

BUT if someone were able to dyno a JE50+KL31 then change to a MX6 ECU and KL02 that would be interesting to see the A/F ratio differences. If there is a big one, there is a problem with the KL31 ECU setup somehow.

Perhaps this is why heaps of people claim big gains by using megasquirt. Maybe they get the A/F ratio going good and not so rich. They shouldn't get a massive difference in power on a N/A 2.5 engine just from changing to MS. Some claim 20-30HP gains which is excessive IMO for a small N/A engine.

I have a kl01 ecu so I just need the kl02 vaf/maf and I would be willing to try it. As far as the 20-30HP gains... after seeing first hand what simple tuning can do I don't think this is too outlandish mostly because as it has been stated the kl31/36 and probinators are not a true tune for the klze. The guy running the dyno even said that jesse could easily get 10-15 more HP out of just simply leaning out the mixture... I think if you spent a couple hours on the dyno with MS you could get close to 20-25 HP more... I'm sure I will be proven wrong or correct soon enough...

Until yesterday I didn't understand exacly how important the tune is! My eyes have been opened!!

[Whisper]

i originally posted this a few months ago on the topic:
http://www.mx-3.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=69959" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
that answers a few questions that have been repeated here.

as for the engine running rich, the probinator is a modified KL85 EPROM with ZE maps, it does not contain ZE multipliers and is therefore not the same as the real thing. asking why the ZE runs rich on the probinator is as simple, its not the right ECU for the engine. i dont want to tread on peoples toes but NOBODY knows everything about the KL ECU so modifications made are never 100% perfect.

if you have an aftermarket FP and stock FPR thats the first place i would look
2nd would be your plugs (check for fouling), then the cat converter

No, stock FP. Brand new plugs, put them in a few days before the dyno run.

I wonder if the car is actually starving for air at higher RPM... ECU runs open loop at WOT, so it only controls the amount of fuel, and it merely assumes the amount of air you're getting is correct, but what if we're not actually getting the right amount of air? Is that even possible? It seems kind of snug behind the headlight (where most people have the CAI filters), not a lot of breathing room, and definitely not a lot of ventilation.

Just a theory.

How's your tuning project coming? I'm really hoping someone will make a proper chip for these motors. Probinator works, but no more than that.

I definitely do not want the trouble of going MS, since I've no electronics experience, and I gather most dynos won't touch it...

[fowljesse]

Hey, I'm not trying to sway you, or anything, but.. you know how cheap I am, and you may know that I know almost nothing of electronics, and HATE doing wiring.... but... it wasn't so bad! If you happened to go that route, I could come up and help you put it in, and tune it.

[_-Night-Shade-_]

I wonder if the car is actually starving for air at higher RPM... ECU runs open loop at WOT, so it only controls the amount of fuel, and it merely assumes the amount of air you're getting is correct, but what if we're not actually getting the right amount of air? Is that even possible? It seems kind of snug behind the headlight (where most people have the CAI filters), not a lot of breathing room, and definitely not a lot of ventilation.

At WOT it only ignores the input from the O2 sensors for safety precautions, it still gives fuel based on the vaf/maf input so I don't think that would be the issue...

[fowljesse]

This may be a potentially bad idea, but if you have access to a wideband O2 sensor, maybe you could put in K8 injectors.. or K8 nozzles on your injectors.

[Whisper]

ignores the input from the O2 sensors for safety precautions, it still gives fuel based on the vaf/maf input so I don't think that would be the issue...

Pretty sure it ignores VAF signal at WOT. I don't know if it's past a specific RPM range, but I guess as VAF approaches maximum opening, the signal changes become so minuscule, that ECU can't really read them accurately, so it stops doing that and just goes off the base tables.

[Whisper]

Oh, and Jesse, I know where you're coming from, but I'm really trying to stop fiddling with the car. Like I just want it to be done. Heh. I have an RX-7 that I need to start working on this summer, and hopefully get it done for next year track season.

I suppose MS doesn't sound so daunting if I get help from someone who's familiar with it, like yourself for example. Wouldn't want to drag you up here just for that, though. I'll think about it and read up on it, but burning a proper tune onto a stock ROM, like the one stocker100's working on, sounds just so much more elegant... I don't need to squeeze every last bit of power out of the car, frankly I'm well happy with it right now. All it needs is some mixture tweaks to make it run right.

[fowljesse]

Well... There's alot of people selling MS systems on PT
It would be great if K8 injectors could fix it.

[Whisper]

I don't have the K8 injectors anymore.